ep87 – Antoinette Beenders

This week’s guest is the Global Creative Director and Senior Vice President of Creative for Aveda. She is a winner of British Hairdresser of the Year, and she’s done models’ hair for Mu Mu, Stella McCartney, Alexander McQueen, Dolce and Gabanna, and the list goes on. It is my great pleasure to chat with Antoinette Beenders. 

⁃ Antoinette shares how she got started in hairdressing, and what lead to her impulsive leap to London to work for Trevor Sorbie

⁃ She shares about the move to Aveda and the perfect fit of their philosophies, and the role that it played in developing her own style

⁃ Antoinette talks about what it means to be a creative director

Complete Transcript

Chris Baran 0:00
We discuss some images in today’s chat and you can see them in the podcast videos at ChrisBaran.com. How great would it be to get up close and personal with the beauty industry heroes? We love and admire and to ask them how did you learn to do what you do? I’m Chris Baran, a hairstylist and educator for 40 plus years, and I’m inviting all our heroes to chat and share the secrets of their success.

Today’s guest is a brilliant hairdresser, and editorial stylist. She’s been British hairdresser OF THE YEAR London hairdresser of the year. She’s had not she’s a nine time nominee in those categories. She’s works closely with the world’s top photographers models and creative talent. And she has been creating dynamic concepts and striking images, combined with little hint here environmental consciousness. And as the Senior Vice President of this press vice president of creative and global creative director of Aveda, she’s in charge of the image development and artistic direction she’s dressed here for models from mu mu. Alexander McQueen, Stella McCartney and Dolce Gabbana to name a few and hint, we just found out she’s going to Paris to do hair for the for the couture show. And if I had to describe her work in one word, I would say absolutely stunning and I realize that two, but cut me some slack it’s my show. So let’s get into this week’s headcase Antoinette Beenders. Antoinette It is a pleasure and welcome to headcase as I always tell everybody look at you have to be a little bit of a headcase in order to do what we do. And so that’s why we call it this. Welcome. I can’t wait to have some just some fun some chat.

Antoinette Berenders 1:56
Thank you, Chris, for having me. I’m really honored to be part of your program. Very exciting.

Chris Baran 2:02
You know, it’s, it’s, I was saying what I were talking with Damien Carney the other day, and I know that YouTuber YouTuber are close. And it’s funny how a lot of the people that I’m getting to meet on the podcast, there’s like two degrees of separation I find, you know, the people that I know, I know them too. But somehow, we’re passing in the dark. And you know, it’s always at the shows, and most of the time other than it nah, ha, when we’re forced to be on stage together and beside one another that I actually had the nerve to come up to you and say, Hey, would you be on my podcast? And so hoping that you would? So thank you. It’s just a pleasure. And so I know you were just having a little conversation before and you are you’re talking about sometimes the chaos in a good way, the way we travel and the amount that we travel on the road and what, how many days? How many days out of the year? Are you actually on the road?

Antoinette Berenders 2:59
That’s a good question. I don’t know by days, but by months, like this year 2023 I’ve been I think already. We’re end of June. I think I’ve been away for five months. I really haven’t been much home. Wow, I just literally just back home now in my studio. She can tell. And I’m about to I’m shooting this weekend. And then I’m off to Paris for the couture shows. Yeah.

Chris Baran 3:23
Wow. And so when you say the couture for for all the people that you’re doing as leads and for the fashion weeks is that? And that’s what’s that? Like what’s been leads here, but I’ve never been over in Paris. And what’s that? Like?

Antoinette Berenders 3:41
It’s so I mean, I’ll be very honest with you. I’ve done a ton of fashion shows my whole life. London, Paris, New York, Milan, but it’s always been ready to wear. This is my Firstly, this is a good shoot for a couture show, which is it’s like it’s my bucket list. I’m about to tick one of my bucket list things off next week. I’m so excited.

Chris Baran 4:02
Can you give away anything or like

Antoinette Berenders 4:05
I can say is the person and I’m going to leave it up to everybody’s mind. And I’m sure hopefully by the time the podcast is out, you know, you would have seen everything on social media. But it’s a she she see that the only sustainable criteria in the world. And she just did a dress for Beyonce. That’s all I can say. I can’t say her name until next week.

Chris Baran 4:30
Are you do you for the couture? I mean, we all know that. At least in North America, the ones that I’ve done it was you have to be just most often does that master ponytail maker for a lot of the North American ones that the least the ones that I’ve done or they’ve seen that’s the only thing he can do. But with couture I’m sure that’s different. Yeah, know what, it’s all custom is are you making pieces or

Antoinette Berenders 4:54
Custom? No, it’s custom to each individual, each individual model person. It’s all custom. You And it’s craftsmanship. It’s purely craftsmanship, this curious craftsmanship, if you think about it, it’s all custom made for for a individual. And that’s the approach I’m doing with the hair. It’s true haircut, you’re

Chris Baran 5:14
gonna come along and just watch, just watch. That would be just pass amazing, fascinating to do. You know, and I just find that in the intro, no, we talked a little bit about everything that you do and five months on the road, and we’re, we’re what at six months now, that means that you’re just on the road constantly. And I think for anybody that’s, that’s out there, that to know that the time that you spend traveling, I mean, I don’t do travel as much as I used to, but it was, and I don’t know if it’s my, my checkboxes or whatever, personality, but I think the most that I ever did was, I think we did 258 days on the road in one in one year. And I It sounds like you’re gonna surpass that by far, but what’s that? What’s that, like, at home? I know. What’s it like for your husband?

Antoinette Berenders 6:12
He doesn’t like it. I mean, it’s like, you know, Chris, it’s like, you go on a trip, you come home for two days, you go back for me, you know, for I mean, this year, I was on one continuous trip for a month. So that was pretty tough. So he said, I’m going fishing and like good for you. So he went fishing in Montana. It’s hard, you know, sometimes hard, but I love what I do. And my job is my life. It’s my career. And my husband, who I’ve been with for 30 years. I was you know, I’ve been in this cake for over 40 years. So he kind of knew what he took off. And, yeah, he’s incredibly supportive. And I’m very, very lucky. We obviously loves you. Oh, absolutely. And likewise, you know, we’ve been together for over 30 years. So you have to have that support, you know, I think in order to do what we do, so,

Chris Baran 7:00
yeah, read it. My wife is the same way. I mean, she’s, she’s always been the backstage person. She doesn’t like to have her picture taken. And she wants to be in the backstage. And when I was on the road, I don’t know, I think it’s different for her. I think she actually liked me to be gone. We’ve been married, we’ve been married now. She’s 50. In May, it was 53 years. If I bought it wrong. I’m gonna No, I’m never going to hear the end of it. But the actually, probably if I had to count up the days, I was actually home, we’d probably only been married for 25. So, but the reality, the reality is, I know that behind every person that’s on stages, another amazing person in the background, it’s always that has to be there for support, you know, and to make sure that, you know, they don’t have to need you around. And so I take my what’s your, what’s your husband’s name is Monty. Yeah, I take my hat off to him. I’ll take I’ll tell him, Chris, I take my hat off.

Antoinette Berenders 8:04
Sorry, you go ahead. No, no, no, it’s actually quite nice little moment. Like, you know, I’m obviously thinking about next week, doing this big show. And so we just got the hair thing through of what we’re going to be doing. And so we’re like trying to figure things out. And I’m talking to my team, like, Hey, here’s my ideas. Your days, let’s come back together on Sunday. Let’s talk about it some more. So my husband said, he’s going to get some shopping because I promised to spend some time with you. So in the car, he’s phoning me up. He said, Well, what about this idea? And he’s not he’s not even ahead. And he gets really involved, which is so cute. And he comes up with a lot of ideas for shows, funnily enough, and he does use it for my shows. He’s really into music. He’s a photographer, and he’s a very creative person. So yeah, it’s quite fun how your lives kind of intertwine in the end, isn’t it?

Chris Baran 8:55
Yeah, yeah. That’s, that’s amazing. Especially, you’re so fortunate to have a photographer around you, I know that you mean you. You deal with photographers all the time and on shoots all the time. But I want to I want to kind of take back because I don’t know if there’s anybody in the hairdressing industry, if they don’t know you, I don’t know where they’ve been for the last like, 20 some odd 30 some odd years. But I want to go back and so that, you know, you didn’t just rise to fame, all of a sudden, you didn’t become this global phenomenon that people admire bow to kiss your ring and so on. And, and, you know, it may sound like I’m blowing smoke, but you know, I know the industry and I know the name that you have, and I know when you walk on stage, I mean, you know, I’ve been around I’m pretty long in the tooth with this. But what I watched when I’m watching your presentations, I make sure to watch because I your presentations always are that’s the word I’m looking for. Clever, you know, they’re, they’re really, they’re high fashion there, the hair is absolutely phenomenal because that’s what we do. But there’s more than just walking on a stage with a model that has beautiful hair. There’s the theatrics, there’s the how you present it is so damn clever that I always look at it and I go damn. You know, you always come up with that stuff. They use it. Why did I think of that? You know, and so but I want to go back to the beginning before all that happened. When your your, your Dutch by heritage, right? Yeah. And is that where you got your training? Is that where you started? I

Antoinette Berenders 10:42
started I started when I Well, first of all, before we start with my my heritage, you know, when you do what you do, and you love what you do, I have no idea what people think I just do what I love. So when you, you know, say all these beautiful things, I’m like, Wow, I’m almost taken aback because I don’t you know, I just do what I love. And I do. I always say, what what can i What would someone would like to see in the audience? Like, I try to reverse engineer a lot of stuff. But that’s kind of how I think in my head. But where did I start? I started when I was 14. So I’m 54 No, I’m not. I’m 56. So after a while it kind of kind of go. And I’m proud of it. You know,

Chris Baran 11:28
one of the well, there was COVID. So we don’t count those 256.

Antoinette Berenders 11:30
I was a couple of weeks ago, I premiere and I was there with Sam and Georgia Andretti and candy show. And I was the first one I said, You know what, there’s a whole whole audience full of younger people. I said, I’m 56. And I’m proud of it. Because our industry is always seen as a young industry. And I actually think that’s BS, I think there’s a lot of experience. And if you look at some of the people that are still doing it, you know, they I think it’s I think we should be proud of what we’ve achieved. And I really am it’s I have no problems in saying my age. Yeah, I wish more people felt that way sometimes because

Chris Baran 12:14
and you know, you brought up you brought a really good point with our industry and the youth in our industry, etc. And I was reading the book the other day, just on on the East Indian culture, etc. And, and it’s how there’s such a difference in the way that the elderly are revered or put aside, you know, and different some cultures and you know, for what they are, we all grew up in them. But what I love about when you look at the Indian culture, etc, they, they revere their old people, they’re, they they take them in they they listen to their words, they’re the ones that they go to for the wisdom because of their experience. And, and I think, you know, just right or wrong observation for our industry or for our culture and particularly in North America. I think it’s almost like we have a you know, throw away elderly is you know, and I and you know and I and I might I might see that I mean I’ll put it this my my mom my dad loved them revered on them always was there. But I watched just the way that sometimes anybody that some time got a little bit older you got to lose a newscaster that’s getting a little bit older. Nobody says all they’re gonna get somebody new in etcetera. What’s your take on you know,

Antoinette Berenders 13:29
you know, the beautiful thing nowadays is a people tend to live a lot longer through all the incredible medicine and what have you. But we’re now officially called ageless. I love that term. We’re ageless, over 50 plus officially, and I think it’s great because it doesn’t matter to me. You know, it’s like passion is passion. And I think our industry is built around fashion. So whether it’s fashion or beauty or someone 70 It’s fashion, you know it’s the same thing. So going back to where I started when I was 14, I come from a family with not very good hair as you can tell. I got very fine hair. And my mother used to go to a hair salon every Saturday to have her hair blow dried and she wasn’t Holland and she used to go to a salon that was quite well known in Holland I did not know that at the time but education and training and and when I was 14 I started like braiding hair playing with textures and my father was a photographer and the photography bug and I took my first pictures of things and I was 13 or 14 something like that anyway and you weren’t even a hairdresser and I was just at school and my mom saw me being you know handy with my hands and she in her time she wasn’t a hairdresser but to earn a little extra money. She says Roland said people’s hair and then put someone’s hair in rollers their cycle to the next door so I put them in rollers, put them on the dryer and go back to the other one take about COVID out. So I think I got it from my mother and then the creativity of my dad. My dad is very creative. So I at 14, I started working at 14, I started, would you like to start with that again?

Chris Baran 15:19
Yeah, let’s start that one again. I don’t know. I’ve had my phone on. Everything is on silent here. And I don’t know why. That’s going

Antoinette Berenders 15:29
when I start that again, the 14th thing. Yeah. So back to where we started. So at 14, I joined a salon in the Netherlands on Saturdays because during the week I was at school. As a Saturday girl, they call it so washing hair, cleaning the floor, all that kind of stuff. And I come from a family with you know, not such great hair. So my mum used to go every Saturday she saw how excited and and handy I was with her. So she said Why don’t you go and see if we can get you this little Saturday job at the salon local salon. So I did went there. And they took me on. And I really loved it. I mean, I was washing hair. I was doing model nights pretty quickly after that. But I’m still at school. So at 16 When I finished my first part of school in Holland, I decided I would like to go to hairdressing College, which was one day a week at that time. And then the other four days, I would work in a salon. So I did that, too was the 18th 19th. And then I saw trouble soulbeast artistic team, they came to the Netherlands, a bear in mind, I spoke no, no English, nothing. They came, they did demonstrations, and I was so blown away at that time. And I thought that’s what I wanted to. That’s what I want to do. I always felt like I love cutting hair. I love doing client’s hair. But I always knew there was something else. And I didn’t know what that was. I mean, I come from a small town in the Netherlands. So I I went to the people that organize that, that seminar and I said, How can I go work with those people? And they said, Okay, well let me let’s see if we can get you an interview. So at 19 I think it was 19. Yeah, 1987. I literally went to London, not speaking English. Went Trevor Sorbie knocked on the door, saying, I’m here. I would like to work for you. They said, Okay, let me get you to do a few models. And this is all transparency. I did a couple of models. I was trained in a very different way than they were in London. And they were very polite. And they let me go back home and they say thank you, but no thank you. And here, here’s the Dutch courage that came out. I was like, absolutely no chance of going back. I am going to work there whether you like it or not. Oh, I waited six months. So I and then I went back and I thought I need to move to London, because I’m gonna go there every day until he takes me on. So I did. I moved to London, I worked in a little salon around the corner from where are some lifestyle sellers now in Covent Garden. And I literally just learned English and you know, living in a different country is quite a big deal when you’re 19 years old. So I ended up going foster over Serbia every day. And then there was an ad in the head of his journal at that time, saying he was looking for juniors. Now bear in mind, I was a manager at 18 in Holland, because I loved I loved the whole industry. I liked the business part. I liked the creative part. I like everything of it. So I thought, Okay, well, if I go back as a junior, then I’m just going to learn again, you know, do the whole thing again, like an investment into myself. So I walked back in and he said, I’ve seen you here before. And I said, that’s true. I said I’m staying I’m not leaving. Are you sure to see this race? And he was so fat. That he said, Okay, let me take you. And that’s what I mean by Dutch curry. Okay, so, yeah, so for anyone out there if you get it, no, don’t take it. Just go back and do it again. So he took me on and he completely retrained me. And this was the time Damian Carney that we speaking about. Kenny Franklin, Eugene Solomon, Vivienne mackinder. They were all it was like, you know, the whole whole time.

Chris Baran 19:12
And you were all there all at the same time? Yeah. That would, to me, that, to me would be just like, this pie, this amazing pie with every kind of dessert that you wanted in it all at the same time. And one of those desserts was creativity. What was that like

Antoinette Berenders 19:34
at the time? I mean, you know, we were just, you know, we were just Damien Antoinette. Vivian, Eugene, you know, we weren’t big stars. We were just all working together. We were,

Chris Baran 19:44
but you still had I mean, you knew with a tenacity that you had. And I’ve spoken to Damien and I know Vivian and it’s just you. That didn’t just happen like, I went through that and now all of a sudden I’m creative. You that that creative. He was always there. How did that get grown? How did all of you like there’s so many salons that are out there? And yet in Trevor’s and so he was my hero? And how does how is it that, that every person that came out of there that was either one of their leaders went on and became I hate to word things, but you to become successful, like as you are. Why was that? I

Antoinette Berenders 20:34
think the training first and foremost, I mean, imagine I was a manager in the Netherlands, I went there, I went completely had to restart, like six months training. Like if I had to learn everything all over again. And also, I think, when you got, obviously he knew how to pick people that created Trevor. But also, I think that you attract what you project kind of thing. So he was British, so the year at the time, and that attracts, you know, at that time, a lot of talents. And I think everybody likes to work with us, you know, they would think, Oh, I’d like to be like you or like you or like you. Not that I had that feeling. I just wanted to work with people that I felt I had something in common with. And it’s funny, because although I’m Dutch by heritage, I felt when I went to London, and I went to Sorbie. At that time, I felt like I was coming home. Even though I did speak only in English. It was quite bizarre. Yeah. Because I think it’s like minded people.

Chris Baran 21:33
Yeah. kindred spirits. Yeah.

Antoinette Berenders 21:37
And I think that in one’s life, I realized that it’s I’m getting a little older now. It’s like, you got to find your people.

Chris Baran 21:46
Yeah, yeah. Find your peeps. I told Trevor that. I don’t even remember the year like was I think it was in the latter. 80s early, no, maybe it was probably early, mid early to mid 90s. I can remember. And I’m sure you know of nowhere and know of and Minsky Mansi. And I was doing an Minsky’s heritage show in Toronto. And we’re doing the show, this was after our stuff, and I just said, you know, I’m just I reached feel that I’ve reached this plateau. And I want to go and do something. And and I had a salon and all this stuff that was going on. I said, I told her, I just feel like packing up and go to Trevor and say, I want to work for you. And even if it’s just assistant work, I want to climb the ladder and do it and you know, but the same as anything. I think whether it was family, finance, whatever I chickened out, didn’t do it. And I often wondered what would have happened, had I done that what what would have happened, where would have gone, et cetera. But it’s not a crying under the river, because I still watched everything that he did. And that inspired it’s just inspired me on to do what I do. And I think he’s helped so many people in our industry that either by being beside him or being influenced by him, that, you know, I think we owe just a huge our industry or owes such a huge debt of gratitude to him. Hey, I remind you, you are Chris Barron. I think yeah, well, you know, I come home and my wife. Like, come home and my wife says, take out the garbage in the kitty litter. So that brings you right back to Earth real quickly. But you know, I think you know, don’t would you agree that when we do what we do, because we love what we do? We don’t think about like, in my mind, I’m still I have impostor syndrome. I you know, why? Why is it what why did people think that I what I do is clever when it’s just stuff that comes out, you know? But I, I understand and I want to go back to, to Trump just for a minute because you, you and some of your team organized. Organized tribute or tell us about that. What was that like?

Antoinette Berenders 24:11
2018 19, something like that. It was Trevor 70th birthday. And three daSun has had a tribute in the past by his team. And Eugene Sally Brooks, Angelo seminara. Tom, who was one of the who was the current at that time, the current our director, and we’ve all been our directors in the soybean house. And we thought it’d be really nice to recognize Trevor because I think in anyone’s career, whether you’re Trevor or anybody, your career goes up when it goes down and he’s gone through some personal illness so we thought it’d be really nice to pick him up and do the show and together with tribute magazine, we managed to put that together and it was really lovely. For it was lovely to see everybody you know against That was great. Yeah. And second of all, he was incredibly grateful and thankful and, and it was nice for him to see the talent that, you know, he was part of part of our lives. So that was really special.

Chris Baran 25:14
I think that I can only imagine for him that was, you know, you, your art directors, and you know, they they come and they go and then a new one and so on. But to collectively get everybody together. I just find I was blown away with the one time when I saw he and and now I’m trying to remember this was like, probably 10 years or so ago, when I think it was was it he and Eugene, when he was passing the baton?

Antoinette Berenders 25:46
Oh, he’s passed the baton to a lot of

Chris Baran 25:50
Yeah, yeah. Anyway, I can remember seeing on stage and just, and it was the fact that him and the team on stage just

Antoinette Berenders 26:01
because I, you know, many times said, said to Gemma, thank you so much. Now, you’ve meant so much to my career. And he goes, you know, don’t take me he’s that you think yourself. He said you’re there was at work. I mean, the things that you don’t see is, you know, sending outside Topshop, looking for models, so 11 o’clock at night, you know, that’s what it takes, or, you know, doing spending nine hours on a graduated bob. That’s what it takes. That’s what it took and not getting paid. I mean, it was a lot. But I think if you’re very passionate, and it does, it could be anywhere in the world. It doesn’t have to be London, it could be anywhere. If you’re passionate, and you want to, you know, make a career in hairdressing. It just takes a lot of love, passion and hard work. Yes, the basic ingredients.

Chris Baran 26:50
You know, you said something just a minute ago about sitting out of Top Shop till 11 o’clock at night trying to find a model do a graduated ball because that’s what you had to do. To test out on or just to practice with? What you know that one thing and I’m I want to put this delicately because I you know, I think it’s in our industry right now. What scares me is that it’s almost like hairdressing or hair cutting is starting to die away. You know, like, and I don’t say that it is, I’m just saying that wherever I go. And I know when I teach a class, I’m, I’m like, Steven, listen, I’m gonna cut from if you’re wanting to do me a haircut, and you want to learn from an ultimate goal shoulders up. If you want to just do links and layers, you do that all day long. And not that I’m against it. I just say that’s not what I do. And I and I, I see the fear in in people’s eyes when when is it to cut short hair? And you know, you said your hair is is fine and and typical Dutch hair, but it’s beautiful. And it’s cut well, and, and to me, that’s what I think is I’m afraid of our industry right now that that and I’m hoping that we can do something that’s going to pull that switch and get it back on to the haircut mode and bring people back into the salon more regularly for hair cutting, etc, and help to help to create more financial gain for hairdressers that are out there, etc. Tell me what you feel. Are you on the same thing?

Antoinette Berenders 28:28
It’s to do with trend. I think the pendulum swings one way and then a few years later the other way. I think that we’ve had a lot of long hair for the last 1015 years, a lot of emphasis on hair color and extensions. And in the 90s it was all haircuts. It wasn’t so much about extensions and hair color. It was haircuts. A lot of hair cutters became colorist even myself, I started doing color. I never thought myself as a colorist and I still don’t color hair, but I’m a color concept. That’s kind of how I look at it. Yeah, yeah. So I think things change over time. I like the fact that for me, it’s all about craftsmanship. And whatever trend is the trend, there’s craftsmanship. So and there’s you know, if there’s craftsmanship and something is done well, and then you can charge. If it’s not done well then it’s maybe not so chargeable, but that’s in the eye of the beholder, so your customer or your client. If you have I always used to always say this in the salon. In the early days when we used to get a new intake of assistance. We used to say okay, if you want to do short haircuts, start by wearing a short haircut yourself. Because if you have long hair, you’re going to attract what you project. You’re going to have the clients with long hair, so we could start to change ourselves.

Chris Baran 29:49
I’m getting Yeah, I’m giggling because in the 80s You weren’t born then but I had my hair was like waistline I am I have this naturally wavy hair and this is coming off right away. But my I have this lion’s mane. And people always used to call me that, you know, you said you have a hair like a lion and I would always do my best color Cowardly Lion impression with hope. But I had this reddish blond, reddish reddish blond hair with this, just a moustache, red mustache, and the long long hair and, and to your point, that’s what I attracted. And I was getting sick and tired of doing nothing but my hair cut that I had on my head on every one of my clients. So I just cut all my hair off. And then it changed, you know, so it’s true what you say. So let’s fast forward. And you you’ve you’ve you’ve been at Trevor’s and now I’m curious as to what drew you out there had been something really compelling to pull you out of the Sorbie organization or to break away to do your own thing as you’ve done, what was that what happened

Antoinette Berenders 31:10
to tourists for 10 years, 11 years. And I started winning awards. So I started other other companies have started to keep an eye on me. And I always felt very much about hair is part of the whole like, I’m very much an editorial type of hairdresser and person. I you know, I don’t believe in knowledge of the head I believe knowledge of the whole which by the way means Aveda. So it was actually a no brainer. Plus, the fact is I met met horse Rachael Barker, who was the founder of Aveda. And he was working on things that I’ve always thought about, but I’d never really seen in action or and he really challenged me, which I really liked. So, you know, they came knocking on the door, and I found out about it, and it was the perfect opportunity. And it’s become my new home ever since. And it’s it’s been incredible. I’ve been an incredible journey. I’ve been everything from an art director to a creative director to an SVP what I am now today, so it’s, it’s been a really, it’s a gorgeous journey, a lovely journey. And I’m incredibly grateful.

Chris Baran 32:21
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Antoinette Berenders 33:32
anything? Creative Director, I think I need to explain the word the difference between creative director and our director and our directors is tends to use a lot in our industry. These are maybe an art director in the salon, that the head of the creativity who does all the training, or it could be an art director of a product company who does all the shows a creative director for corporations very different thing. That is I had a team of 40 people doing everything from store design copywriting campaigns, video multimedia, that’s a whole plethora of, of different elements. So I had the opportunity to become the Creative Director for Aveda in 2005. And I had to learn a whole new career because I came from the hair world. Yeah. And I’ve done lots of shows. And again, my heritage is in photography. And that’s what they were attracted to. So they said we’d like you to do that for us and like great. So I moved to New York, and I ended up learning a whole new job. And it’s fascinating. And then up until 2019 I was the corporate creative director. And then I felt the urge to do a little bit more hair hands on hair. So I decided I move across back to artistry. So now I’m in charge of artistry for Aveda, which then gives me the opportunity to do hair shows again and so I’ve been coming out doing stage work again because I haven’t done that for a little while. Yeah, and it’s nice. I’m actually having a rebirth into Drake’s

Chris Baran 35:01
I love it. I love what Todd told me when, as in your position that you have now and back on the hair. What is so I know it’s about conceptualizing and, and helping the team get what do you what do you do in the process? And how and I know it’s a mixed kind of question in here. But where I’m digging at is for people that don’t understand. When give us a little bit of you know, if you had to give us the Cliff Notes, the Reader’s Digest version of if you’re doing you have to put and conceptualize the show, the hair, put it together for the team, making sure everybody knows what their job responsibilities are. What how does that how I’m going to take it back? I saw not take it back. But I saw you waved Hi, you remember, we’re I think we’re at the SC show last year, the year before. And the very next day after you were already I saw you in the coffee shop with your team, planning your next show. And this was right after you just finished the show. Tell us a little bit about what that’s like and managing the people and and if you’re like, is it a collaborative process process? What’s it like?

Antoinette Berenders 36:12
It’s interesting, I’ve actually this this last couple years, what I’ve focused on is mentoring people. So I’ve created all different artistic teams, I created the global artistic team about 10 years ago. They’re all rock stars in their own right. So now on to the next level. The North America so we work in region. So we have global than we have North America, UK, EMBA and APEC. So we have all these regions. So worked on the North America team, for the last two years, work with them. And really, what I want to do is bring the Aveda artists to the forefront. And we’ve been incredibly successful. If you were at two of my team members, they won awards. I’m so proud of them. Ellen,

Chris Baran 36:54
our Alan’s were amazing.

Antoinette Berenders 36:58
Husband, Monty took the pictures, so I was proud of both. I’m really proud of both of my boys. Yeah. Wow. And then Luis Gonzalez, another Rockstar, also known as America, one colorist of the year. And then of course, we also had student of the year. So I’ve been I’ve been mentoring these people for the last couple of years. And now going into the BTC awards, we have about nine nominations. So I’m like a proud hen. So proud in how I can explain that a little bit, because I’ve just now also created the UK, Ireland or 260. And how I do that is I take the knowledge and experience that I have as a creative director as a hairdresser. And I do virtual classes with them. And then we get into studio and we and we create a concept virtually as well I’m, I’m literally doing this this weekend with one of our top sellers, different Michael group in Atlanta, that we’ve created, I’ve been doing trainings with them how I see imagery, and then make them think in a slightly different way. And that’s the beauty of having been a creative director for 15 years, I can see it from from a photography point of view from a social media point of view, and then build strategies around it. Because when you do in the world of hair imagery, it’s not just a picture anymore. It’s your social media strategy. It’s your videos, it’s your tic TOCs it becomes a whole big part. I remember in the old days I used to go on a shoot and did like six pictures on a day and that was it now that’s the those days don’t exist anymore. You have to get behind the scene videos, finished imagery, finished fashion videos, and then build your strategy so you get as much audience as possible. So having done that, but the team’s Yeah, it’s worked incredibly well I’ve built this credit this formula. And yeah, it’s really lovely seeing all this talent from the Aveda network really coming to the forefront and I’m super excited to go to Austin because I can’t wait. I think but anyway I’m proud I’m proud of there already are where they are and yeah, it’s lovely at this stage in my career that you can give back.

Chris Baran 39:02
I’m listening to you and in all here because I find in our industry sometimes there’s so much of this. You know me me, me me and I want the attention to be about me. I’ve told this this, this the what’s the word I’m looking for? belief system. The thing that I go by is I got from my dad where he said that people are in he was a salesman 40 year cycle of work. And he said you have to two cycles you have your first 20 years where all your everything you’re doing is giving you’re buying a house you’re giving out information you’re making sure that whatever and then your next one he said your next 20 years now keep this from a guy who had car lots and he was very much hardcore salesman. And he said that the next 20 years you get so you give for the first 20 you get for the next 20 And then you you you get back you know you own your house. You You’re saving money, you’re, you’re getting all these other things. And what I’ve learned along the way, because I can remember at the very beginning and that first 1015 20 years, I, and I’m just saying me personally, probably a little more selfish, because it was about me, what am I doing? How is this helping me? But I find that now in my now this is my I’m in my third 20 year cycle. And like you, I really think that it’s what are we doing to give back to our industry, so that everybody doesn’t have to go through the pain, the anxiety, the money? What can we do to get them not that they’re not going to have none? But what do we get them through quicker and easier and faster, so they don’t have to go through what we went through. And I think that’s what I why I’m so held in awe of what you were just talking about is it’s not just how am I making Antoinette looked good out here. It’s what are we doing to grow these next level of artists that are coming up from behind,

Antoinette Berenders 41:00
it’s about, you can’t do everything on your own. You know, and I never personally have any children. But to me that I have, I will say I have a lot of hair children. And it’s just so lovely. And for me, it’s so nice, like they’re working on something and having the experience, okay, if you just do that, you’re gonna get that. Because, you know, that’s the longevity of our career. I even did that even. I just did a collaboration with expression. They were we asked them last year to do something with Aveda, they did a beautiful photo shoot. And they were in London, presenting the photo shoot. And I was there to the emcee, what have you. And I said, What about if you do on your next session? Why don’t you take this thing and then you this way, you’re gonna get a better response. And they did it, and they got a better response. So it’s really lovely. I just love sharing my knowledge, because it’s taken me 40 years to get there. And that was what was lovely. With our collaborative collaboration we did, we just launched this collection called April, a piece of hair, where I came up with a concept of with passion, Japanese fashion designer, and we took their knowledge and Meinl or my team and myself knowledge. And we put it together. And that’s when you get fireworks. And that’s when it really becomes exciting. So even if you’re, you know, whatever level you are, it’s worth collaborating, I think. Because I think you bring your knowledge together, and you can double knowledge. That’s how I see it, rather than single knowledge. And the other thing is, Chris, that I wanted to share with you that you talk about me, me, me, me, me, right, I actually think that something in our industry, that’s created when we’re behind the chair, and I’m going to tell you my thinking behind that, when you are behind the chair, you are the most important person to your client. So the client adores you, and you give everything that you have to that client to make her happy. And I think that’s what happens. So I don’t think it’s the hairdressers fault, necessarily. I just think that something that automatically happens without realizing it. And that’s how you end up with the that kind of culture. But I am very much about doing collaborations. And I think if people really think that through, it’s like, a fashion designers and musicians have already done it for us. You know, look at Madonna, she’s done the collaborations with loads of people. And that also keeps you up to date. Because, you know, it’s important to kind of mix the passion, you know, that young energy with experience? I mean, to me, that’s a match made in heaven.

Chris Baran 43:39
Yeah, yeah. Because I know, I know, I feel the same that I, I can come up with an idea that I have in my brain. But somebody, if you tell somebody else, when you start to collaborate with them, then it gets exponential, because you say, Well, here’s the start point. And somebody adds a piece in and then you add another, somebody adds another and so by the time you’re done, it’s 10 times greater than what it was with the original idea. If you can let that original idea go, you know, if you’re not hanging on to it for a thread, you know, by a thread through the whole thing. And I very much am a collaborator, I do better when I’m collaborating around people than you know, just like we used to call them creative bounces in the salon, we had them in the salon all the time where we’d have somebody would come over, you get stuck on even on a head of hair. And you’d say well, so I’m thinking about your call somebody over we never said Would you help me on this, but we say hey, I want to create a bounce. Here’s what I’m thinking about. And then somebody they would say, well what about this? And he’d go yeah, what at this and then we’d say to the client, what do you think it’s you know, I liked that. And I think when they see when the end result is better, simply because of what you collaborated. And I know I’m going kind of around in a circle here, but I to me, that’s my process. I have to have people around me to push the idea. I love

Antoinette Berenders 44:58
editorial. You Because editorial, if you think of true editorial, it’s a photographer, makeup artist, model, hairdresser, stylist, you all come together and you bring something. And that’s that process. That’s what I’m all about. I love that.

Chris Baran 45:16
You know, you bring up such a, the what I, here’s, here’s a huge learning lesson that I had one of the first times that I did the editorial shoot with Red King, and we and was Chris Sorby. And I, we made all the wigs and we had them all ready to go. And Chris has had at that time had done way more editorial shoots with corporations than I had. And, and I remember I got my I got my knickers in a twist because we made this wig. And, and, and it was it was gorgeous was had in the head was we did the first shot and then they said to us, okay, do something different with it. And I went no, you know, and I was I was I was, I was I was ready, not ready to quit, but I was going this is stupid. Chris Herbie had to take me outside, have a little chat with me. And she said, Listen, it’s their shoot, they’re paying for all this. We were just collaborators. We’re just we’re creating the stuff for them. But the more that you can work with them and just say, Yeah, look, I’ll try something, and it works great. And so here’s what we did. We went around, we turned the week on backwards. And it was a shot that the whole campaign was built out. And so I had a huge lesson that day and learning the difference between my shoot and somebody else’s shoot.

Antoinette Berenders 46:45
But I think it’s to do with passion, Chris, I don’t blame yourself. Don’t blame. Don’t be hard on yourself. It’s like you’re passionate, you’ve created something you so badly want to make it perfect and great. I see it. I recognize it. But you know, we always have to keep an eye on to the bigger picture. And Chris Hogan is a darling. I love Chris to death. We used to travel all the time together. She’s

Chris Baran 47:05
incredible. She She’s amazing. So what if you had somebody that was? I hate the question when somebody says What would you tell somebody else? If they’re a budding, editorial stylist? But what if you had to say that if you’re going to write down just a couple of things, doing something that was a shoot for? Some not just for their own, where they just run on their own? What would you say that if you had to give some pointers to somebody about doing a shoot a collaborative shoot, either with other artists, or for a company, a manufacturer? What would you what would you say would be the best things that pieces of knowledge that they should have?

Antoinette Berenders 48:00
I think every shoot is to do with a story. You have to have a story. I think that’s my number one thing, because I think there’s a lot of us out there that do beautiful hair pictures. But it’s a beautiful picture another beautiful hair picture and and what’s the difference for how would you make a difference? And I think being authentic and storytelling, that’s that’s how I will I really liked it. And then from there, you can morph it into something because it’s not just the head oversee. Maybe this is the better answer their heads only a fifth of the part of the body. It’s not just about the hair. And that’s what’s so fun. What I love about Kung Fu and fashion and all that stuff. You are creating something that has to go with the rest of you, of whatever that is, whether it’s clothes, whether it’s whatever, you know, and I think that’s also the difference between editorial fashion editorial and hair pictures, hair, pictures, the hair, some most important thing but fashion in fashion is you know, that’s the most important thing there has to go with the pressure. I remember doing the show in the late 80s early 90s in London, and we were spending hours on the hair and the show producers come up to stop the bloody it’s a fashion show that they’re here show. I never forget that is power of one.

Chris Baran 49:21
Yeah, that’s what I’ve always loved about your work is that it was never just the hair the hair was always gorgeous. But the whole shot just had a it just evoked this emotion about it. i The the one that I that hits me right now is coming to it. And the hair was gorgeous. But I remember the dress. And I think that the dress was black and you have this multicolored garb that was part of it. It was on one side of the dress. And then it was all flowing like it was flowing in the wind. And I was trying to figure out how did they get that to flow did they draw But what did they do? But I remember the that it was this total feeling of freedom that that whole photograph had. And I. And I think that’s where you’re a master, I, you know, I think personally, I think too much about making an avant garde hair shot versus an avant garde shot. And so

Antoinette Berenders 50:22
I, by the way, by the way, one of the things that I have figured out is the gift of the technique of wafting. I’ve actually come up with a whole spiel around it, I actually teach it to some of the kids that I’m working with, like, you know, wafting here and moving here moving clothes. I’ve got like whole different techniques to it. So it’s quite fun. And I love movement in general, because I don’t like things. To me movement. Ah, those are my three things.

Chris Baran 50:55
Yeah, I remember. And I see it in all of, I don’t say that it’s necessarily all of the people that came out of the Sorbie house. But I remember, and I can’t remember which photograph it was Trevor did. And I think it was, I can’t remember what it was that he had inside it. It was all his color technique, but then they had to break it to make it look so that people said, oh, it’s real hair. It’s not just, you know, two strands of hair that’s left on the head. And I think that Angelo did that a lot, too. He would make those incredible color pieces on it. But then it would show a break in it to show that it’s not all just perfect. And I think that’s a skill to have.

Antoinette Berenders 51:39
I also think that, you know, my i Yes, I come from the house of Sorby. But that was only 10 years of my career. I have spent 25 years already, Aveda. And I think when I left, so but that was really a time in my career where I had to develop my own style. And that’s why I think the marriage between Aveda and me, I will say I’m part of a very innovative part of me. Because it’s that marriage that has to completely click. And I you know, I live in nature I in for me, here is nature. So that’s why I want to be with nature and work with nature. That’s how

Chris Baran 52:17
I see. I think that I see the future. I’ve got my crystal ball out in here. Oh, no, the year, but I, I already see the people that you’re working with doing a tribute to you. I think that if they’re going to listen to this, I think they should start planning it not that we’re, you’re not going away. You know, I’m whatever the hell age I am now 73. And I’ve still got more in me. I’m not going away. Uh, you’ve got a lot more. And I don’t want you going away. But I think that I’m going to put the word out there. When they’re ready. They need to be doing something for you and a tribute for Antoinette.

Antoinette Berenders 53:04
So that’s very kind, I’m very touched. Thank you.

Chris Baran 53:08
Well, listen, you deserve it. You You definitely deserve it for what you’ve done for all of us in the industry. I want to do I’ve got a think I told you a little bit about the rapid fire things that we do on here. So they don’t have to be like, you know, it don’t have to be just one word answers. But one word, couple sentences, whatever for each one of these. What turns you on in the creative process?

Antoinette Berenders 53:35
So you weren’t single or sorry, let

Chris Baran 53:37
me I’m sad single words or doesn’t matter. That’s a hard one for

Antoinette Berenders 53:40
me. Let me think about this for a minute. I think it’s the second that the camera goes click, and I’ll tell you why. When this is for me the difference between a good picture and an amazing picture. And I’m all about images. That’s just my passion, right. So when the camera goes, click, it’s a split second. Now when you have an amazing image, you you will know that all the energy that has gone into that split second is amazing. The model is into it, the photographers into it, the hairdressers into all that energy from all the people that are all into it, and it goes into that spits a click boom, amazing. That’s what I love about imagery. And that’s what that’s my that’s where I live. That’s the that moment that’s what I live for. Now when you picture when when there’s someone on set, and I gotta go here, I’m not into it and but I’m just doing my makeup quickly or I’m doing my hair quickly or whatever the energy is not everybody’s really into it. You’ll never get a great picture. I can guarantee I’ve seen it many times. So if you’re going to do it, so all the way.

Chris Baran 54:50
Yeah, I think I’m not sure if you answered this next question with that one, but I’m gonna I’m gonna put it up there anyway. What stifles your Creativity. When in when you’re trying to get, you’re in the process what stifles creativity for you

Antoinette Berenders 55:07
bananas?

Chris Baran 55:11
Boy, that was a mouthful right there.

Antoinette Berenders 55:14
Well, I think this was a great scenario earlier with you and Chris, you didn’t want to do it. You didn’t want to do it. But I think you need to be open, because there’s always another way of doing something. And as hairdressers, I think, I think it’s hard for us. We’re very passionate people in general. And I think it’s hard for us to have criticism. It kind of, it’s almost like, it hurts us, right? Because we want to please people, that’s how we are. But don’t let it hold you back. You know, don’t hold it too tight. Like let it flow. And there’s another idea tomorrow, I always

Chris Baran 55:57
love it. That an event or a show. I’m sure there’s many that you had, but the one that you event or a show that you just loved. And there’s many but what’s the first one that comes to

Antoinette Berenders 56:08
Congress? Absolutely. And Congress is a celebration of the arts, it’s a two day hair phenomenon. We’re actually having one this year, we do it every couple of years is in Minneapolis, and it’s to date of hair show of the hair show of the hair show. I mean, if you’re into hair, this is the place to come to because this is artists from all over the world, showcasing their talent. And then in the evening, I do the evening performance, which is like my representation of the brand. It’s phenomenal. It’s it’s networking, it’s being together. But at the end of the day, it’s about celebrating the art. So if you haven’t got your ticket yet, come and see us September, I made a congrats,

Chris Baran 56:48
I’m coming. thing in life? No, not necessarily an inherent dressing but in life in general. What’s in life? What is what’s the thing that you dislike? Something you dislike in life itself?

Antoinette Berenders 57:03
That’s a tricky one. I’m not good with dishonesty. I like I’m very much about fairness. So anything that’s not fair I struggle with?

Chris Baran 57:16
Yeah. And what do you love the most?

Antoinette Berenders 57:19
What do I love the most? I love life. Life in itself. I mean, you wake up every day, how lucky are we? I wake up and I see the birds and I see my doggies running around. And I mean, I’m so lucky. Lucky to be alive.

Chris Baran 57:37
What do you think was? What do you think? What was the what was the proudest moment that you’ve had in your life?

Antoinette Berenders 57:44
Proudest moment. I think winning British headers of the year was a huge one. I mean, I’m fortunate, grateful. I’ve had quite a few proud moments. But I think British as a foreigner at that time, that female was a huge thing. So for me, that was amazing. And I recently had one, I was the only female for international hairdressing awards. So that was also a proud moment. And I feel proud every day that I can still do what I do. And people find it inspiring. I mean, everything for all of those of you that Instagram me at Angela benders, just in case. You know, thank you so much for your comments. Because I do what I do, you do what you do. But it’s really nice when people really appreciate what you do. And you don’t always hear that. So thank you for all of those, you know, all of you that that said, lovely messages, and I’ll try and replicate that as much as I can. So thank you for that. That keeps me going. Yeah.

Chris Baran 58:41
Agreed. Agreed. Is there something that you dislike about our industry?

Antoinette Berenders 58:48
I think I’m really you know, this this, there’s something everywhere, you know, it’s not really the kind of person that I am. I just like to say super optimistic and ignore things that are not the way I like it. And you know, and try and change it.

Chris Baran 59:05
Yeah, good for you. person that you admire the most?

Antoinette Berenders 59:11
I think it’s my husband. Or are for pretty good answer. Good answer. And my family. My mom and dad, thanks for bringing me into the world. Yeah.

Chris Baran 59:22
Yeah. person, that person that you wish you could meet, living dead past whatever, somebody that you would love to be able to meet.

Antoinette Berenders 59:31
I think I would have liked to have met Lance Armstrong. And ask him what was it like on the moon? The feeling? Wow. Yeah, I’m quite into because everything is going so spacey a IE, like, I would like to know what it feels like to be in space. And know I do.

Chris Baran 59:52
Yeah, that’s wild. You know, the other day, you know that there was that whole thing about the submarine that when they went down to see the Titanic and again my wife said to me would you go down in that went Not on your life but on your life especially after we found out that was going on. It’s just I think it’s the confined space and being down and I’m okay in a confined space but not in complete darkness for that law

Antoinette Berenders 1:00:16
keep you in the light then

Chris Baran 1:00:19
there you go. Something people don’t know about you.

Antoinette Berenders 1:00:24
Something people don’t know about me. I live in Minneapolis. Maybe they don’t know that. A lot of people still think and

Chris Baran 1:00:31
I always thought you were in London, New York, wherever I have lived

Antoinette Berenders 1:00:33
and all of those places in all of those but now I actually my my main homestead is in Minneapolis because of the Aveda offices over here, and I love living here.

Chris Baran 1:00:46
You got your parka all ready to go. You’ve hung it up already

the if you had a month off, month off, where would you go? What would you do?

Antoinette Berenders 1:01:03
Go on a boat in Greece and do the islands. I love being on the water. I love living on the water. I like being underwater. I just there’s something with water. And I that is so when I’m on water. I feel very calm and relaxed. And so I think I’d be on the boat in Greece somewhere.

Chris Baran 1:01:24
Have it? Is there a thing? Anything that that terrifies you? insects, birds, snakes? Anything?

Antoinette Berenders 1:01:33
Mice? Anything creepy quick? But I don’t know. I mean, I really I’m a nature lover. With all the things that comes with it. I mean, sometimes, you know wake up and I see a deer walk past them go. That’s just walking through my garden. I’m so blown away by it. Or I think and as my life progresses I want it. I love being I love traveling and being in the cities and doing all that. But I get all my energy and my ideas when I’m home in the in nature. Because I’m calm. I think it’s new with energy.

Chris Baran 1:02:16
Yeah, yeah, I know we had we had two baby Bobcat kittens just outside our front door, you know, soaking in the sunlight and it was just my wife and I just stared at it for as long as they were there. It’s just so beautiful things

Antoinette Berenders 1:02:29
that I absolutely know. Because it’s it’s a very special moment because I live in Minneapolis and you probably all know it gets very cold here. But when spring starts here, it is unbelievable. It’s like an orchestra outside of birds. Because not only everybody’s so happy I love that. So everything is just vibrant and nature is vibrant and the birds are vibrant and the people are vibrant it’s a really beautiful time of the year.

Chris Baran 1:02:58
Yeah, and nature is something that is just phenomenal to have. I know that last collection I did was based on hoarfrost you know, like when you see that on the trees I just have always found that being from Canada we got a lot of that and it’s it was always there. No next one favorite your favorite curse word Bama farmer what’s your favorite comfort food you’ve had for whatever and you just said I want this this I gotta have it. What is it?

Antoinette Berenders 1:03:30
Gotta have it. Gotta have it. I like I like crunchy things. The crunch, bring it on, like a crunch.

Chris Baran 1:03:42
Me too. If you had a is there a is there a food from home from Holland that you still crave? Or you

Antoinette Berenders 1:03:52
know more from England? I love horseradish

Chris Baran 1:03:54
sauce. Oh, are you a curry

Antoinette Berenders 1:03:59
like curry I do. But I love red sauce and they do a really good one as Marks and Spencers. So whenever I go to London, I always like get some bring it back and my neighbors are English too. So they’re like, I bring it back to the whole street.

Chris Baran 1:04:12
Bring back prezzies something I don’t even know if this. I think you’ve done it all. But it’s something in the industry that you haven’t done. But excuse me, but you want to

Antoinette Berenders 1:04:24
let’s go calm. Chris, I wouldn’t answer that.

Chris Baran 1:04:28
I don’t know if there’s

Antoinette Berenders 1:04:32
I honestly don’t know how to answer that.

Chris Baran 1:04:35
Yeah, well, I think because you’ve done everything seresin. And, like a duo. If you had one do over in your career in life, you know, like just something that if I could do that over again. And then where I usually get rid of gives me the pat answers. They say, Oh, well if I wouldn’t have done if I wouldn’t have done that I wouldn’t be who I am today but if there was something that you could do over again, what would that be? Do I say

Antoinette Berenders 1:05:00
always say yes to things to opportunities? Because I have said no, a few times. And that not has not always worked out in my favor. So I would say, especially if you’re building your career, say yes to everything, just go and do it and find out about it.

Chris Baran 1:05:17
Take, and tomorrow if you couldn’t do hair anymore, couldn’t do hair couldn’t be in the industry. What would you do? I think

Antoinette Berenders 1:05:25
I’d be a photographer. I love imagery. It’s in my blood.

Chris Baran 1:05:30
Yeah. Yeah. Last question. If you had one wish for our industry, what would that be?

Antoinette Berenders 1:05:40
I’m actually going to put it down two words. Passion, craftsmanship, and opportunity. And I think if you think about it, we have aI around the corner, it’s hot on our heels. It’s happening already. What machines can’t do yet it’s the power of touch. And what we do as hairdressers or stylists or as colorist, anyone in the beauty industry, we touch people, we touch them here and we touch them here. Find a machine that can do that. So I think we have a huge feature and a huge opportunity. But we have to have the craftsmanship and the passion.

Chris Baran 1:06:24
And thank you, if I know we mentioned it before, but if people want to find out about you get a hold of you. Where would they go? What would they do? Where would they

Antoinette Berenders 1:06:36
get ahold of me? I think the easiest is on Instagram. Just DM me at Antoinette bean. There’s, it’s it’s my name fluffy, Instagram.

Chris Baran 1:06:45
B is B E. M D. S Superboy. Be for boy Yes. Antoinette. I don’t know who enjoyed this more, but I think it was my pleasure. Only thing missing was a glass of wine. But you know, I tried to keep until after four or five o’clock, so, but I just want to say thank you from the bottom of my heart. I feel like I’ve got a new bestie even getting to know you. We’re gonna we’re gonna get together, we’re gonna share that glass of wine in the dinner and more. I just want to say,

Antoinette Berenders 1:07:26
I want to say thank you very much for the opportunity. I really appreciate you reaching out. There’s a lot of people you can speak to. So thank you so much. And I want to thank the audience for listening to us. It you know, we can all learn from each other and I just really appreciate you taking the time to listen to this podcast. So thank you all very much.

Chris Baran 1:07:46
Thank you Antoinette