ep129 Jamie Wiley

Show Notes

Welcome to Head Cases! Today’s guest took an incredible path into the beauty industry, after a five-year stint in the Army, she set her sights on becoming a creative force in hair. She’s the former Creative Director for Pureology, a global educator and brand ambassador for BaBylissPRO, and she’s brought her artistry to the runway at New York Fashion Week for over 70 designers.

Her editorial work has appeared in Vogue, Harper’s Bazaar, Marie Claire, Elle, Cosmopolitan, and even made waves on 60 Minutes. She’s a multi-award winner and finalist at NAHA, American Beauty Vision, Behind the Chair Global Image, and the Alternative Hair Awards. She’s also the founder and CEO of HairBoss, an editorial stylist, content creator, wife, mom, and a humble, inspiring human being.

So let’s dive into this week’s Head Case with my talented friend, Jamie Wiley!

2:07 Jamie’s Entry into the Hair Industry

6:38 Transition from the Army to Hairdressing

29:27 The Importance of Mentorship and Training

38:14 The Impact of AI on Content Creation

43:48 Overcoming Setbacks and Embracing Growth

Complete Transcript

Chris Baran 0:00
How great would it be to get up close and personal with the beauty industry heroes we love and admire and to ask them, How did you learn to do what you do? I’m Chris Baran, a hair stylist and educator for 40 plus years, and I’m inviting all our heroes to chat and share the secrets of their success. Hi,

Chris Baran 0:26
welcome to head cases and today’s guest after a five year stint in the army focused on becoming a creative force in the hair industry, she is a former Creative Director for Pureology, a global educator and brand ambassador for babyless Pro and at New York Fashion Week, she has brought her vision to the runway for over 70 designers. Her work has appeared in vogue Harper’s Bazaar, Marie Claire l cosmopolitan, and even made waves on 60 Minutes. She is a finalist and multi award winner at American Beauty vision. Naha behind the chair global image and alternative hair Awards. She is the founder and CEO of hair boss. She’s an editorial stylist, a content creator, a mom and a wife. She’s a talented friend, a humble human being. So let’s get into this week’s head case. Jamie Wiley, well, Jamie, welcome to head cases, and it is just a real honor and a pleasure. I know we’ve had so much time that we’ve spent together on the road, at shows, at events, etc, but it’s just really pleasure to be able to sit down have a great conversation with you today.

Jamie Wiley 1:43
I’m really excited. Thank you so much for having me. It’s an it’s a true honor to be with you on your podcast. So let’s do it.

Chris Baran 1:51
So, you know, I always like people to know a little bit about, like, the hair story, you know? And I know I’ve got some questions. I know that you were in the army. I went, Holy crap, you know, but I want to know about that. But what’s your hair story? How did you get into hair?

Jamie Wiley 2:07
Yeah, so hair, I was always around here. My mom did hair in her early 20s. My my family’s into hair so drew up in the salon. You know, in the late 80s, early 90s, the perms and the solution and soap operas are

Chris Baran 2:23
fragrant of ammonia

Jamie Wiley 2:27
and

Chris Baran 2:28
full of diapers, you know exactly.

Jamie Wiley 2:33
And so just growing up in that you know that area, or you know that so I it stuck. It sticks with you, especially how people feel like I don’t, you know, you don’t really remember the hair, you remember the fragrances and the aromas and the perms and all that, but I truly remember how people felt, and that was the beginning of it. I think it kind of shocks people when I then I joined the Army, and they’re like, whoa, you were going to do hair. What are you doing? But yeah, that’s like, the beginning of it all when I wait.

Chris Baran 3:11
But so what? What prompted the army,

Jamie Wiley 3:14
you know, it’s, it’s, I say this, and I don’t really know if it’s, it has to be, it has to be the reason I date myself. So when I was in kindergarten, it was during Desert Storm, and we had a soldier that came in, and he talked to us, and I will never forget him and his story and his uniform, and just as like duty to service, like to serve. And so I was like, oh, after that, I was five, I was like, I’m going to be in the army. And my whole family was like, hahaha, sure. And I was like, I am, so just be ready. And and my family was it was hard. It was really hard for them. They didn’t want me to go. So, like, try college. I was like, Okay, I’ll go. So I went for one semester, and I was like, This is great. I want to be in the army. So I enlisted after my first semester of

Chris Baran 4:06
college. So was it the was it the like I’m trying to go back to there had to be something really poignant that, that that soldier said to you, that that really hit. And was it? Was it the, was it the line duty to serve? What was the, what was the, the real emotional connection that you had with that guy?

Jamie Wiley 4:29
It was for one the uniform, the uniform, and just like his poise and how he presented himself, and I don’t remember the exact words, but it was definitely, I get to serve my country. I get to. It wasn’t I have to. It was I chose this. I raised my hand and I get to. And it was just that the whole aura of him, really, I was like, Oh, I love that. And I and I, it kind of moves into, like, hair too, like we. Serve people behind the chair. We serve, you know, other. We serve each other. So I that, you know, it kind of all intertwines together,

Chris Baran 5:10
yeah, and it’s really interesting because I wrote that down when you said it the duty to serve. And there is such a parallel in there and and, you know, when I So tell me how. I don’t know if the operative word is duty. And my son is producing the show, and he says, You cannot take a can’t take the 12 year old out of any male. So as soon as I said duty, I know he’s snickering right now, so I’ll say duty, your duty to serve. And you know what did? What’s your feeling on the industry right now, when it as a from this there’s a difference between serving just from from want, need or expectation, versus the emotional charge that is my duty to be to serve you as the client. How does that stick? What does that is there something in there that resonates with you?

Jamie Wiley 6:06
Yeah, I feel like it. It’s a feeling. It comes back to, how do you make people feel? And I think, ultimately, like, that’s how I’ve moved from behind the chair to editorial to, you know, working with brands and things like that. How do you make people feel at the end of the day? You know, the hair? I sometimes people don’t even remember the hair. They remember how they felt. And I think that’s why I remembered how I felt and how the clients leaving the salon, and 80s and the 90s, how they felt. I remember there. I just remembered how they felt. And so the feeling, I think that will, that’s, it’s not a trend, it will always be there. And I feel like that us as hairdressers. I think we make people feel beautiful on the inside and the outside. So, yeah, the feeling.

Chris Baran 6:55
So I want to just jump back a little bit to your hair story, because you just said something interesting there about why you transitioned to hair. I mean, I we get the backstory. We understand how you’re there’s a hook in there. We share a commonality in that. As I’d say, This is funny. So many people I talked to, there was a hook with hair beforehand, and mine was the same. I My mother was a hairdresser. However, there’s in your it like, what was the, what was the thing you got? Okay, you came out of the army. You got into hair. What kept you from wanting to be? Not gonna put that into a better question, what, what was it that sparked you that you just didn’t want to be the and I’m gonna, I’m gonna say the word average hairdresser, normal hairdresser, with all due kindness and respect, because that’s what’s out there. But what there was something that was in there that that made you want to jump or go a step further or do whatever. What was that? What? What happened to you along the journey?

Jamie Wiley 7:58
Yeah, so I was in the army, and I loved it. I was good at it.

Chris Baran 8:05
Tell me a little bit of I want to know in a minute about that you’ve got, you’re sitting so many things that are hitting resonating with me, because those of us being Canadian, you went like you went to the army. It was like you went to like, Vernon, and then you watched canoes. You know it was,

Jamie Wiley 8:21
yeah, no, it was really fun. I got to drive tanks and, you know, shoot some really amazing, really big, you know, guns and grenades and things like that. So I really enjoyed it. I really liked it. I you find in those early years of 1819, 20, you you’re figuring it out. You’re like, and, and I was still figuring it out, and I knew I wanted to travel and meet people and and have different experiences. So that’s and also I didn’t want to pay for school. It was like, Yeah, I’m gonna go to school, but I want to pay for it. So I joined. I loved it. It was also right after 911 so that, again, that word service comes to mind, like I even more so that, like, pull to serve, and I what my I met my husband in the army, and I outranked him.

Chris Baran 9:10
Do you still throw that in his face?

Jamie Wiley 9:14
I definitely do. He’s still active duty. He’s getting ready to retire, but I still throw that. I was like, if I stayed in, I would definitely be higher ranking than you know, it was amazing, but I wasn’t passionate about it. I wasn’t like, I got up and I did it, and it was fun and it was cool, but there were days where I was like, is this it? Is this it? And I wasn’t truly passionate about it. And when I was coming up on re enlisting, and this is the fork in the road for, you know, my journey and my hair story, my mom, who is my best friend, and and I could get really emotional talk about it, but she was my best friend. She passed away unexpectedly, and that changes you. Yeah, I mean, to the core and anytime. Somebody close to you passes, and I had never known, never experienced death. My grandparents were all still living. All of my relatives, I had never experienced that life is fleeting, and because you kind of feel invincible, like when you have an experience, you’re like, nobody ever dies like so I was either going to reenlist or I was gonna, you know, I was planning on reenlisting, and then that happened and and it changes you and I was like, I just, I was pulled to move on. I also needed to heal. And, you know, our parents teach us so many things, you know, growing up, especially our mom and I learned, and I didn’t know this until years later, but I learned the one of the biggest lessons she taught me was that day, the day that she died, and that was that you don’t you only get one shot. You only get one chance at this life, and so you might as well. You might as well go after something that you’re really passionate about and really sets your soul on fire. So I went to, I enrolled in Harris my husband deployed to Iraq at the time, and I enrolled in Harris School, and it was the same school my mom went to and they asked you on the first day, why are you here? Like, they want to know, like, What’s your why? And I said, like, you know, I’m amongst, you know, I’m 2324 at the time. I’m amongst 18, you know, younger. I had a baby and, and I said, If my mom just passed, and I I want to just, I need to heal, and I feel closer to her when I do hair. And they asked me, like, oh, who was your mom? She went to school here. And I was like, yeah, in 79 and they said, and my elite instructor was like, I went to school with your mom. I knew your mom. So that was like a universe being like, you’re in the right place, right time, yeah, and, and I think too, like, it was my second career. I, you know, I had this, like, you know, big thing on my shoulder. I’m trying to, like, you know, grieve and process, and also, kind of, like, navigate into hair and so, you know, quote, unquote, I, I knew I wanted to run instead of crawl, you know, and it’s okay to crawl sometimes, and I still do, but I knew I was like, I’m going to do hair behind the chair, and actually, these editorials, and I don’t know how I’m going to do it, but I was really drawn into all of those avenues.

Chris Baran 12:35
So that was a vision right from the beginning. It wasn’t something that migrated into your brain. Yeah, I want to just touch on I’ve talked about this on a couple of other podcasts that we’ve done. But because the reality is is the more that I talk to all industry leaders like yourself, that the more I talk to them, the more we share so many common things you know, like losing a parent and losing or losing someone in your life, a partner or whatever. And I could, I could see a feel and hear the emotion in you when you were talking about it. And I don’t remember who told me this story, but I thought it was so profound, because I remember. I remember having people losing people in my life, and and people said, Well, time will heal all grief, you know, and they’ll heal. And then somebody said to me that that was a pile of El Toro Kaka. And they put it to me this way. They said that, if you can imagine grief like and because a grief is obviously in our in our minds, in our bodies and our souls and our hearts that we have when we lose someone. But the what this person said to me is that they think, they say that the grief will reduce and and the way that person put it was, they said, Imagine your grief is inside of a big container, a cup, if you will. And they said the grief never gets smaller. It’s just that the cup gets bigger and the things around your experiences are going on, but the grief is always still there. You’re still, always connected, remembering having moments of pleasure, etc, that you have around that person. And so you have these throughout your life, little grieving moments, you know. And maybe they calm down or whatever. But when I, when I, when that person put that to me, I went, you know, that’s the best analogy that I think I’ve ever heard for grief,

Jamie Wiley 14:39
yeah, absolutely. It’s almost like you, you learn how to carry it, yeah, you know, at first it’s really heavy, and it’s, it’s huge, like you said, and, and you just over time, you learn how to carry it’s still there, yeah, I said, every day I still, I need my mom every day, like, so it’s, yeah, it’s definitely still there. Yeah.

Chris Baran 15:00
Awesome? Well, I was gonna say awesome. The Wrong, wrong choice of words. But, you know, it’s, I think they play such an important part in our life, especially when you talk to people who, maybe whose parents weren’t as caring as giving and so on, as your your mom was so good honor. But So speaking of, speaking of mentors, and I mean, I’m inclined, as the guy in me wants to go back to what was it like driving a tank and throwing grenades, etc,

Jamie Wiley 15:26
but it was fun,

Chris Baran 15:27
yeah, but because we, because I take it that your mom was not only somebody you really looked up to, but a mentor of yours who have been other mentors in your life that helped you to carry on that passion that you have.

Speaker 1 15:42
Yeah, I, I’ve had, I’ve been really

Jamie Wiley 15:46
grateful to have, you know, quite a few one, one of the first salons I worked at, Renee Bertucci. She was the salon manager, incredible, skilled hairdresser, cutter, and I was she, you know, took me a whole bunch of us under her wing. And because of her with there was three or four of us that ended up working for brands as educators. So we had a whole Salon of educators because of her. So she really drove the importance of foundations. And you know, you know, when you’re young, you’re like, it’ll be fine, you’ll figure it out. I really learned from her foundations, and then moved into right away, moved into Pureology. And was I met Ruth, Ruth Roche and Wendy Belanger right away. And it’s just like, it’s almost like they’re celeb like, it’s like their aura and the celebrity ness of them, it’s like you’re just awestruck every time they touch hair. It’s just like a movie you don’t want to ever end. Like you could watch them do hair forever and ever. So I was so grateful to be able to learn from them, grow with them for many, many years. You Chris Baran, you Sam dia, there’s so many people at Reagan that I’ve trained with and things like that. So along the way, there was different people for different you know, little parts of my journey and just every single piece fits into a puzzle. So I think that’s one of the biggest things that now, as a mentor, I encourage people to encourage young stylists and older stylists to find somebody that you resonate with and and you know, tag along,

Chris Baran 17:40
because, yeah, it’s interesting. Is it that you know as mentors? Excuse me, it’s I find it really interesting. Even that term mentor, I think, is so misunderstood in our industry, and because, and I can remember having a conversation with somebody the difference between a coach, a mentor, and an idol, you know, because I always used to say Trevor Sorby was my mentor. Trevor Sorby, at that time, didn’t even know who the heck I was, you know. And I think mentor has to be somebody that physically touches you. Let me phrase that EPC, that emotionally touches and connects with you, helps you, guides you, gives you advice, whether you paid for it or not. I have I have mentors that I pay for and I have mentors that that have really helped me along, just by one or two words that they say. I have idols that like like Trevor Sorby, God bless his soul, and may rest in peace buddy and Anthony muscolo and other people of that like that, said something to me on stage when I was in the audience, they say they were on stage, said something, and it tweaked in my brain and and it helped me to want to grow, and it helped me want to get past the setbacks that you have. Because I, you know, I think that there’s, you know, I always like there’s that, that flip that I like to think about. You were in, you stepped in front of Ruth, or in Wendy or whomever, and you were instantly filled with awe. And we tend to forget as hair heroes, people that have affected our industry and so on, in good way that we affect people like that, and even to the some point. I mean, I’ve been around people where I, you know, I’m a very private person on my own, but, you know, I on stage, I can have fun and be gregarious, etc. Because I think that was me no wanting to be a comedian that I never was. But I think that we forget that sometimes we can intimidate people too, and that they look up at us as as a mentor, and so they’re so careful on the words that we have to use. Give me a little insight on how you feel about that switch that now you you. Who stood in awe of other people now have people that are in your audience and are in awe of you and your talent.

Jamie Wiley 20:08
Yeah, I 100% agree. I remember being afraid to even like, speak to Ruth and Wendy when I first got on the team, because I was just like, oh, like, you feel so small, but the more you learn and the more you grow, and it’s almost like, um, you’re like, I’m ready to step behind the curtain. I’m ready to learn and grow in that, in that arena, as an educator, as a stylist behind the chair, so you find out more, and you kind of peek behind the curtain, you’re like, do I belong here? I don’t know, but I’m going to try it out, and that that gives you the courage and so the more I guess I don’t even know, like when it flipped for me, probably when I was teaching, because there’s nothing more humbling than looking at where you are right now and saying, I want to be there where they are, but this is where I am, and acknowledge it and say, Okay, this is what I got to do to move, you know, to get there. There’s truly, I remember taking videos over and over, for, for Coach Chris, for for trilogy, for Johnny still lotto and sending them in. And just like holding your breath, and you’re like, oh my god, somebody else is going to watch me speak. And but it was, it’s never comfortable, you know, until it is. There was, I had a mentor one once tell me you want to get to a point where you can chew gum and jump rope and smoke a cigarette at the same time. And I never forgot that. I was like, Okay, I if you can do all that, you can, you know, you know, that’s kind of, I probably when it started to switch and and really it’s just doing like you have to put yourself in that uncomfortable zone, and then the more you do it repetition, the more you do it, easier it gets.

Chris Baran 22:09
I am. I’ve written that down, and I’m going to quote you on this from here on in, because I would believe in quoting, but I loved what you just said, and it has to do with what most people in our life, it’s about and you said, it’s never comfortable until it is, you know. And I think if so many people would just realize that that in everything, I mean, we had to do it with riding a bike, you had to do it, and we had to do it if you got married, you had to do it with kids. You had to do it with you. When you’re doing your first haircut, your first color technique, etc. It’s never comfortable, because, you know, even our brain, the way our brains are wired is to keep us safe and keep us from avoiding harm or fitting in with society and so on. So mistakes are often, so often viewed as something that, like with you having somebody watch your video, you’re, you know, while they’re they’re looking at and going, this girl is amazing. Your brain, and near that amygdala at the back of your brain, what I call your lizard brain, is saying, Oh, they’re hating me. They’re not liking me. I mean, listen, every time before I get step in front and get this microphone in front of me or on a stage, I’m do the same thing. I’m always questioning myself. And I think that’s, that’s what people if people would just listen to that line that you said more often, never. I’m never, you’re never comfortable. It’s, it’s never comfortable until it is. I just think that’s a brilliant saying, and I think people, I’m going to get that and write that down and that one down for me. I’m gonna, I’m gonna throw one back at you, because I, I had a, you know, had a coaching session with my, my business coach and and I was talking, we’re talking about, why do we always want to step on stage? Why do we always want to put ourselves in that uncomfortable situation, and I don’t know if I’ve ever been able to understand it, because I was never the kid that wanted to have go into any competition or be measured myself against somebody else for fear that somebody would say, Oh no, you’re you were in second place, or you finished last, or whatever that was. And I was talking to my coach about this, and I’m gonna give him a shout out right now, for Jason Everett, you know, and because he was, he can go pretty deep on you and and he said to me, you know that he had, he went through the same thing, and he actually wrote this quote down, and I have it written down in my office, and he’s and he said, May my true impact forever be obscured from my view. And I had to think about that for a second, because so so often I. Yeah, we do it for validation, you know, like I want to step in front of because I want to prove to myself and prove to other people of what I can do and look at, you know, and I it’s that still a part of that look at me thing and and then even just a few weeks back, I had another meeting with him, a private meeting between him and I, and he helped to push me, which, you know, I always want to say, you rot in the son of a guy, but he pushes you and, and he talked about how, and I can’t remember the person’s name, who it came from originally, but I think, if I’m not mistaken, I think it might have been Simon Sinek. He said, he said that most people, when you’re stepping on stage, or you’re in front of an audience, you’re doing it for a reason. You’re doing it for the applause. You’re doing so the audience loves you. You’re doing it for a good testimonial. You’re doing it because of whatever reason, but you’re doing it for the reason. And the one that stuck was he says, the moment that you can stop being in front of an audience for what you want from them. I mean, we always talk about it’s about them, it’s not about us. But until I that always resonated with me, but until I got the true meaning was when they said, when you don’t have a need from the audience, you can be truly authentic in front of them. And I just went, Holy crap, that’s it puts a whole different light on what we do.

Jamie Wiley 26:34
It really does. Because you know you have the you know you have the brand’s message or what, why you’re there on the stage and and I totally resonate with that, because I was always so nervous that I wasn’t going to hit the marks, that I couldn’t be authentically myself for a really long time. It took years and years of practice and practice and things like that. But 100% resonate with that, yeah? Because now, now I am authentically myself, and I can hit all of the marks that they want you to hit, but, but truly, and I don’t know if it was you or if it was Sam, that said when I really aha for me was when you said it’s none of your business what they think about you. Yeah, yeah. And God, because I did I I’m the same as you, Chris, I don’t like I don’t I’m a hermit. I like to be at home with my kids and and I’m actually a really big introvert, so when I’m out and about, people see me. That’s, you know, not who I really am on the inside, but I am like that, right? Because of, you know, getting these messages across and things like that. But, and at the at the beginning, it was, what did they think about me? I hope I did okay. I because you have that such need to make like, surf like, make sure that you know it’s worth it. Somebody comes and sits in your class for an hour, or all day, or days, or whatever it is they travel there. You just want to make it worth it for them. And so it’s that line between like, like, you have that nerve, that nervousness of I mean, I want to make sure that they get the value from this, and then also hitting all those points. So it truly is like, once, once you’re like, I don’t care if they like me. I want them to take something home with

Chris Baran 28:36
them, yeah, you know. And I want to, this is a question I had posed for you, because for those people listening, I I just said to you at the beginning, I write down all these questions that I have, and halftime, I never get to them, but you hit on this, and I want to dig a little deeper on that is because you talked about that. Now you’re truly authentic with yourself, but for other people that are out there that that you know, and being what makes you you, you know, Jamie is different than what makes Sally, Sally or Chris, Chris when we’re on stage. But what do you what was the switch that you think that really happened? And I know you talked about, it’s none of their business, but to note to what they think of you and so on. But what is it that, what do you think makes you you? What makes you so strong and so powerful when you’re on? Let me rephrase that, what makes your message and your education so powerful when you step on stage?

Jamie Wiley 29:37
Training, I will say training. It’s just like, it goes back to, you know, jumping rope and chewing gum and smoking a cigarette at the same time. You can’t do you can’t get to that level. First you gotta just, I’m just trying to jump the rope like I’m just trying to, you know, just so it’s that comfortability of repetition, of doing it over and over and over again. And then you can add to it. Yeah, then you can add over here. And so it goes back to just training, get education, take as many things in the industry and outside, I think there’s so many amazing, useful tools and classes for us outside of the industry as well. And just layer, layer, layer. And once you get to a point where, like, I feel, feel really great, then it’s gonna, you know, challenge yourself some more. And that kind of comes down to, like, you know, competitions and things like that. I always wanted to do that, but I was scared. I was so scared. And it’s almost like there’s no playbook for it. Like, how do you get started? Where’s the team that you’re going to work with? Like, you don’t really know. So it’s a decision. Like you you’re, it’s not like one day, like you’re you’re not ready, and then the next day you’re ready. It’s deciding, I’m deciding to do this. And so I think that just like, layer all of the training that you can, because you don’t fall right this saying you don’t fall down, or down to the level of, you know, the opportunity you or you don’t rise to it. I’m saying it wrong. You don’t rise to that opportunity, but you fall to the level of your training and and, you know, truly, that’s, I think, just seeking out what you want.

Chris Baran 31:25
I bet we have something in common. I have this love hate relationship. I hate paying for something that I’m not using. I hate working in a small, cramped box, yet I love working in a cool salon that impresses my clients, and I love the culture and synergy of a team while enjoying the freedom of being my own boss. You too. What if all that was available to you at the salon you rent from meet artist on go, a game changing way to rent salon space with artist on go, you only pay for the time you’re behind the chair. You can choose a salon that fits your vibe, location and amenities with artist on go, you’re a part of a stylist community, not hustling alone. Plus you get to enjoy perks like clean towels and back bar supplies. Check out. Artist on go, built for stylists, serious about their clients and growing their brand without the hassles of managing a space. Here’s the kicker, you can save more than 50% on your rent to find out more. Go to B, i, t, dot, l, y, slash. Artist on go. CB, that’s B, I T, dot, l, y, slash, artist on, go. CB, I always, you know, it’s somebody put I can’t remember who said this, but they said, You always live. You always rise up to your level of incompetence. And I think that if people just really thought about that for a second and said, If I don’t know, it’s one thing. If you don’t know that you don’t know, but it’s another thing when you know you don’t know, and then don’t do anything about it, you’re constantly going to be living in your level of incompetence. And that’s where that again, we’re flipping back to your brain, your mindset, when it says, okay, good. I I’m so afraid that somebody else is going to judge me. I was having a conversation just this week at some point, and I, I was fortunate enough to go and do a a class at one of out of school that we that one of the schools that we own, and we did it on, on, on wig making and and they, one of the students said, you know, when I look at I’m always so afraid to enter a competition. And I said, Well, what? What’s, what do you what are you afraid of? And he said, Well, if I enter and, and I don’t place or make a being a finalist, then people will know, and they’ll think, I’m a failure. And I went, Well, there’s a really easy fix to that. And they said, Well, what is it? And I said, Don’t tell anybody you entered. You know, it’s just enter. Don’t tell anybody you entered. You make finalists and brag the hell out of it. But if you didn’t, just don’t tell anybody up front, you know. And then if you do enter it, and you do brag about it, which you should, because that take, takes a certain set of, I’ll just say, cojones, metaphorically, to to do that and put yourself open to being judged by your peers. And the thing to forget that people forget about it. They focus only on the competition, not on their notoriety. And I think notoriety is supposed to be a bad word, but I’m going to say it, use it positively here. Of becoming famous, getting your name out there, is that sometimes the the I always laugh, because when people talk about about a. A Naha and winning. And I think if you win once, then people think that you win every time. But I always say, I’m the Susan Lucci of Naha. I’ve I’ve lost 1000 times more than I’ve ever won. But the point is this, the photos that I created out of it gave me that that notoriety because people didn’t, didn’t remember, didn’t know, didn’t give a rat’s bottom of whether I won whatever blue rinse competition that I was in. But what they did notice is, in a magazine that it pumped up your credibility because they saw your work. So I think that’s really, really interesting, and I want to throw that back to you as a content creator that you are, what has that done for your career? Has it helped you? Has it hindered what is it? What? How has that helped you, hindered you?

Jamie Wiley 35:50
Absolutely. I have a love hate relationship with social media, like I love it because it has given me so many opportunities. But I also, you know, it’s just, it’s another entity of us, an extension of who we are as hair hairdressers and and it’s a lot, I have three kids, so, like, you know, the content creation portion, it’s like a job, you know, you have to be consistent with it. But, yeah, absolutely, I remember. So I’m an army wife, and move every three to four years, and we were moving from Minnesota to Massachusetts, and this was the time where I was like, really up and coming as an educator, and I was nervous, because I was like, I’m rebuilding my clientele behind the chair, and I’m rebuilding the, you know, the salons that I served, and I’m going to be in A new area. And at this time, I was regional, right in the tri, you know, few states. And my education manager at the time said this was when social media was just like, you know, Instagram was just starting. She’s like, You got to get online. You got to get online. And I was like, yeah, yeah, don’t want, like, I was very hesitant. She was like, I promise it will pay off. And so that was another, like, uncomfortable thing that I was like, I don’t know how to do this. I don’t want to show my face. I don’t want to, you know, all of these things. But I dove into it. I got a coach and a mentor who wasn’t in the industry that it translates, right? So just building, growing, learning, all of the things, and because of that, it catapulted me behind the chair, catapulted me as an educator, because it’s and I figured it out along the way. Why I like it now is because it’s storytelling. I love to I love to tell story, whether it’s content creation, whether it’s imagery, whether it’s for Naha or competitions or whatever magazines. I love the art of a story because people feel, they feel something from it. And you can reach a lot of people through the interweb and so, yeah, 100% I wouldn’t be where I am today if I didn’t have social media and and content creating.

Chris Baran 38:11
You said something really interesting there. And I just had a, you know, one of those synapses that click in your brain. And I always equate it to if you drive to work one way, and you only know that way. And the next time you go to work, you go, oh, let’s how all this fits in relation to one another. And you just said, you said something about Instagram, and you said, when it just started, and it kind of tweaked me on to AI right now, because there’s this school of thought that that is saying, oh, AI, ooh, scary. And yeah, internet was scary. Instagram was scary when it started off. And I think this is a whole new level of something. I’m not going to label it as scary, but I think that if people right now aren’t, they’re not following the things that are now when it’s getting started, you’re going to get further and further behind, just like if you didn’t start with Instagram. And I didn’t, I didn’t, I was one of those people that held off. I’m a baby boomer, so we’re going to go back to writing and sending letters to one another. But it was, if you didn’t do it, then it takes that much harder to get up when everybody else is like, you know, they’re like, a mile ahead of you in the race. And I think that that AI is kind of that parallel to it right now, that there’s so many useful things that you can do with AI that helps us serve and serve our our customers that help us story tell that. Give me your thoughts on I’d like to hear your thoughts, because I think we both have that love, hate relationship with social media. But give me your is, are you using AI right now? Are you starting to use it in what ways? What would you advise people as a content creator for that, that student, that person that’s just starting out? I. Getting their clientele, what would you advise them to use and how to that’s the wrong word. What would you advise them to do right now?

Jamie Wiley 40:08
Well, it’s a tool. It’s a tool, just like social media, Instagram, Tiktok, all those things are tools that are at our disposal that we can utilize to move us along on our journey, whether it’s maybe it’s going to move us a little quicker, or the direction that you actually want to go in. And, you know, before AI, it was a lot, you know, you’re doing all of it yourself, right? So, like, for example, like content creation, I would sit there and write out, you know, my whole I would write out the script. I would write out, you know, these are the all the shots that I want to get. B roll all of that stuff. And now I can use AI as a tool and just plug in. Hey, I’m doing a video on this. These are my goals with the video, and this is what I’d like to see, yadda ya. And then see what it spits out. And if it’s good, you go with it, and if it’s not, you redirect it. Say, I’m looking more for XYZ. Now, is it something that I just feel like, you know, part of a lot of the journey is that you have your starting point and you have your endpoint, and you everything in the middle is, it’s the joy of the journey, and that’s where you learn everything. So are there times where you’re using AI and you’re taking that process out of it? Yeah, so it’s kind of like, you got to know when to be like, I’m not going to use AI right now and I have to go through it. Or when it’s like, you know what? I just need to do this quick video, or I want to, you know, market to my clients, or whatever it is, yeah, it’s a tool. And I think, you know, getting just touching your toes in it, at least,

Chris Baran 41:47
yeah, you know. And I like what you’re saying. And I’ve learned this from my, from my, my team, that I that we have, and Marjorie, who’s on the call right now, is I love, she helps me a lot with getting used to AI. And what I loved it, that she told me was, is, if you’re putting in a sentence, is to give AI a direction on how you want it written. Like, do I want this written for us? Like, so a seven year old can understand it? Do I want to do I want a whimsical do I want to have some fun with it? Do I want it very serious? What and that, and it’ll help you for it. And I can remember all the times that I’ll give you. For instance, we were putting a brochure together, and I just wrote some script. And again, other people have told me, just do the stupidest version that you can possibly think of. Don’t try to make it perfect, put it into AI and then tell it to smarten it up for you, for lack of a better term. And I think all of those things are so beneficial for us right now, because it just saves us time. And it’s the time creation that, or let me rephrase that, the time saved in what we do that gives us, allows us to do the things that we do really well. And because I I always have this thing, if I don’t like doing it, I’d sooner pay for somebody to do it than I would for me having to do it. And if that means I can cut down on my time and stick it into AI and have them make me sound almost intelligent, then I’ll do that.

Jamie Wiley 43:10
Too. Perfect. Perfect. Yeah. And they and the thing about AI too, is it learns you, it learns your style, and it learns your voice and your point of view. And so the more you use it, the more it’s, it’s, it is you. You’re just using it as a tool.

Chris Baran 43:24
Yeah, when people see you on stage and

Speaker 1 43:32
they

Chris Baran 43:34
you get, they get off stage and they, they want to talk to you, and they want to know about your experiences, etc, but they don’t see any of the crap that we had to go through in our journey so glamorous. Yes, yes. What you know is, has there been setbacks for you on the road? Has there been rough patches and and, you know, I always think about mine, and the way, you know some, and I actually did this on one where I was so bummed out that I that I just crawled into bed and I went into fetal position. I imagined myself with my thumb in my mouth, but I didn’t but I remember my bobby wrapped around my head and so on. It was the only way I could get through it. But has there been rough patches in your life? And can you just so we can grasp that some of the stuff that we had to go through is there been hard patches in in your life, in your career, and where you are now, and what and it took to get there

Jamie Wiley 44:35
absolutely a lot. There’s been a lot. I’m just one that I don’t I don’t always share that, and now thinking about probably should, because it just, it’s more relatable, right? But absolutely, 100% lot of rough patches, and I don’t want to say like, in a negative way, because oftentimes you have to go through peaks and valleys. Space. Yeah, you know, in order to be up here, you have to be down here. And that’s the beautiful part of the journey. And so I know it’s not negative at all, but absolutely, like growth is hard. Growing, standing outside of your comfort zone is absolutely one of the hardest things. And but if you can show up and keep doing it, you just it, just, I don’t know, it feels just so nice. So I don’t I’m gonna say this with all the love in my heart, and they are absolutely my pride and joy and the best things I’ve ever done in my life. But having kids is has been challenging to be an educator on the road to, you know, that was, you know, education is my full time job, and then, you know, being behind the chair was my part time job, and so, but I’m a full time mom, right? So I had two out of three of my kids in this industry, and so just even being a new mom and and teaching classes, and like you’re on maternity leave, but you’re not really, and so they weren’t ever a setback. But watching other people, you know, who I came up with, you know, they’re continuing on while I’m being a mom, and which is my choice, like I, you know, and now, so I think that, and one of them, and I think too, why I’m so into storytelling, because it’s non verbal, like you don’t need to talk. You see an image, and it really resonates with you. It makes you feel something. There’s no talking involved. And I really resonate with that, because my oldest son is non speaking artistic, and we communicate without talking all the time. He knows a few words here and there, but, but just those kinds of setbacks. It’s not a setback, it’s a it’s just a part of the journey. So having and it gives you perspective too, right? So, like, how do people communicate and understand without speaking? So that really, you know, navigated a lot of my career, and even in the beginning, I was like, well, they’re young, they won’t remember. You know, on the road, missed birthdays and anniversaries and things like that, and first days of school, today was their first day of school, and I was here for it, which is makes my heart so big. In the past, I’ve been on the road, I’ve been gone. You miss you miss it, and then, you know, in the moment, you’re like, it’s not going to be that big of a deal, but it compounds, and it does over time. So I would say, you know, having kids has been the joy, absolute privilege of my life, and I know they are going to be my greatest pieces of work and but I so that just motherhood, being just being a mom, in in moving forward in this career, it’s, it’s not easy, but because then you have that like guilt of like, I need to be there, but also I want to be here.

Chris Baran 48:13
Yeah, I think we probably have the same therapist on some of that stuff, because I think culturally it’s more acceptable. I’m not being sexist or anything here, but culturally, it’s much more acceptable for the man to go on the road, earn a job while the mom stays home, which is, oh, we all know a pile of El Toro caca, but culturally, that’s what it’s seen as. And I know I’m still burdened, even though my kids don’t tell me they didn’t, I still am burdened with that, that not being there, and I know when you speak of that, you really touched my heart on that one. Because I think anybody who hasn’t been there and seen disappointment in their kids eyes and whatnot, that that it’s one of the most touching things, and I think it sears you to the soul, and when you can’t be there for them anyway, just so we don’t get both emotional on that one. I, you know, we’re kind of, you know, I don’t know, Jamie, we’ve almost been at it for just about an hour now, but I one thing I want to touch on before we kind of start wrapping this all up, is just the I love. When you said I have this love hate relationship with social media, and I want to take about what we do that’s necessary for our job and necessary for every student hairdresser to be social in their work and putting their work out there so it advertises for them. But I want to take your your take on how social media has affected all of us to some degree where that’s all we’re on. I mean, we can’t live I remember taking a class, whatever, 1015, years ago. People. Talking about social media, and my timing might not, might be wrong on that, but they said, if you’re not on social media, you’re going to get left behind. But now, I mean, everybody’s got even at a dinner table, you everybody’s got to have their phone on their on their dinner table, and, and, and what’s your take on and how do you feel like? What do we need to do about it to get more socially adept to one another, as opposed to our phones.

Jamie Wiley 50:26
Well, number one again, social media is a tool for us as hairdressers. So utilizing it, how you want to use it, like how I use it, can be completely different from next person you know at the next salon. So it’s, it’s really, how much do you want to use it? How do you want to use it, and and then easy ways to use it, because it can be overwhelming. And really just deciding that because you don’t need, you don’t need a massive following, you don’t need to be an influencer, you don’t you even need to be a content creator. But if you want to utilize it to build, you know, behind the chair, just build your community and have your clients follow you and and really truly that that’s the extent. And then you get to decide how much, and you know, how much you want to share via social. So if you want to use it, I would highly, highly recommend it. And also, it can be super easy. I like to think of it like a magazine. Like when you open up a magazine, you see, you know, prints and ads and pictures, and it’s a collective it’s not just all words that would be a book, right? It’s not just all pictures. So think of your social media like that. You want to share, you know, bits and pieces of your work. Bits and pieces of, you know, the products that you use to do the work, bits and pieces of your lifestyle, because people buy people, then they buy things. So, you know, do you have a dog? Do you go hiking? You know, do you exercise? Yada yada. So just those bits and pieces will really draw in future potential guests, and they’re out there. They’re looking for you online, so it’s and you decide how much and how little you want to use it. And there’s a difference between, I always say this in every class, there’s a difference between consuming, right? I’m going to open my phone and I’m going to be a consumer. Be a consumer, because we all do it, and then all of a sudden, two hours goes by, and you’re like, what just happened? There’s a difference between consuming and opening the app to build yourself, build your brand. And so really, having that conscious like, you know, for the next 30 minutes, I’m going to open the app and I’m going to build myself, not going to consume any content, update my bio. I’m going to reach out to future clients. I’m going to connect with current clients. I’m going to, you know, shoot somebody. A DM, shoot me. A DM, the people who DM me and ask for things I always say yes or let’s plan something, because you have to have a lot of courage to do that number one, but, but just get on there. Just do it, and you get to decide how much of it. So I don’t know if that answered your question, but I tried.

Chris Baran 53:16
Yeah. No, I know that. And here’s, I mean, you’ve got, how old are your

Jamie Wiley 53:20
kids now? How old your kids? They’re 1715, and 11.

Chris Baran 53:24
Wow, that’s awesome. When did they start like, and this is, I don’t want to throw a curve on this or anything, but I saw an interesting article just on TV the other day and and it was where there’s this whole group of women that are getting together, and they’re saying, and I don’t remember the age, but are they saying that our kids are not allowed to have phones before they’re I don’t know what it was, 711, 1254, whatever it was, but you know what their point was, is that they they found that when their kids didn’t have a phone on them all the time. They were number one playing outside. They were having more interactivity. They were more socially aware of other people around them. They had better connections with their friends. And I don’t know if you saw that. What’s your take on that? How do you feel about that. It’s, yeah, there’s something that I got allowed me to get off my chest. I don’t know.

Jamie Wiley 54:26
No, there’s a huge difference, like, you know, from my older kids that use their phones and from my younger one that that doesn’t have a phone yet. Huge difference from, you know, the way they communicate and things, and just being present, right? Being present, truly, in the moment we started out when the kid, the two older ones, were getting, you know, in that like, oh, I want a phone. And oh, so and so has a phone. We got a landline. We got a landline. We had the cord. It was in the main living area, and we’re like this. Your phone. Give your friends this number they want to call you. Great. So we did start out with a landline, and that was really helpful, because then we could, like, hold off a little extra a little extra long. You know, all of the friends had phones, and they still didn’t have phones, but they’re like, Well, you can talk to them here on the telephone. So absolutely, there’s a huge difference. And also in attitude, just, I feel like, the more because we have, they’ve signed contra we have contracts with them that they have to sign in order to use, you know, a cell phone and things like that. And it’s like time, the time limits and yada yada, but, and we always remind member of your contract. Contract says the phones, you know, we’re done with the phone now for today, but there’s a big difference in their attitude and just how they are present when they don’t have phones and

Chris Baran 56:01
when they do, it is very interesting,

Jamie Wiley 56:04
it is, and it’s a slippery slope,

Chris Baran 56:06
yeah, and I think that, I mean, I think that, no, I don’t, I don’t know how I believe about regulation, etc, but I think that pretty soon, society, you know, are, we’re going to have To regulate how we use that, you know, I mean when I say we meaning ourselves personally, just like you did. And I love the fact that you have a contract with your kids saying, you know, here’s how we’re going to use it. This is what you agree if you’re going to get a phone, this is how we’re going to use it, you know. And even, like I, one of my dear friends, Chris moody, talks about how, even how kids can use that as a bullying tool by ghosting people and so on. So you know, even getting them to in your contract that you’re you’re this is the way you’re going to behave with your friends on it, etc. So we have some social norms built around that. And maybe that’s just this old, gray haired baby boomer talking about stuff like that. But next thing, I’m going to be going cut off my lawn. But I think that’s we’ve got it. We’ve got to do something about starting to police the way that our kids are learning and that so that they can become more and better human beings than just passive aggressive people sitting on a phone all day long. Right? Absolutely. Jamie, I just know where I like I said. I don’t know where time goes when I chat with you, but this has been so much fun, so informative. But I want to throw to our rapid fire stuff that we have. Okay, I don’t want to throw out to you right now. And so

Jamie Wiley 57:31
Chris, before we get to that, can I tell you a story? Yeah, by all means, tell you a short story before we get there. I will never forget working. I worked with you many times on the road shows and things like that. And there was one time we were doing a shoot, a video shoot, and we did it at your apartment in New York City. I don’t know if you remember this. This was I was a young baby educator, baby stylist.

Chris Baran 57:58
We did it in our living room. Yep. And to give it context to everybody, this living room would have been about in a New York apartment, we had a big living room compared to others, but this would have been about maybe 15 feet wide, maxed out, and then about 2520 feet long, because that was the wood. 25 feet was the width of the building,

Jamie Wiley 58:21
yeah, yeah. Whole production. I mean, huge production, video, educational shoot for, for Pureology. And I was an assistant for Ruth and Wendy and I will never, and we had to, it was like a cooking show, right? So, like, one look would have, like, 10 mannequins, and you just, you know, you bring them in and, and I prepped the mannequins, and I got to be in your office, prep and prep the mannequins in your office, and I’ll never forget, just as you have them now, all of your awards, like your not has, and this is, like, the first time, like, I knew Ruth had najas and, and I’d been around people, but There was the first time it was like,

Speaker 1 59:02
ah, like,

Jamie Wiley 59:04
you know, and I was just like, in such presence of of greatness with you and Ruth and Wendy, that I was like, I can do this. I can do this. I don’t have a Naha yet, yet, but I can do this. Like, and I was like, I have to share that with him, because I was like, that that was a point where it’s like, it’s sometimes you don’t always believe in yourself. You kind of need to just surround yourself with other people that are at that greatness that you want to be at and and then you start, then you’re like, oh, I can do this. Like you start to believe in yourself too. So I wanted to make sure I shared that with you.

Chris Baran 59:46
Oh, thank you. Well, that was very kind. Thank you. And I want to just add on to that is that is because you said it’s about the people you hang with, right? And I often wrote this word down, it’s actually, I’m glad we must have a. Psychic connection, because early in the program, I wrote down the word aspiration, because you talked about who I wanted to aspire to be. And I think that’s one of the things that people really understood, that that there you can have goals that are material, but you also have to have aspirations of who you want to be, who you want to be like, not who you want to be as in that person, who you want to be as a human being, and who that idol that asks, Does an idol sounds like a kind of a corny word, but like I see somebody in that that that person that I look up to, I don’t want to be that person, but I want that rise to that level. I want to be that person that I want to be. I want to be like that person that has risen to that level, and I’m kind of botching that up. I do that every time somebody pays me a compliment. But, you know, I think that aspirations are great to have, and I certainly read, and I also want to say that, you know, you said you’re a very humble human being and but you have been nominated for Naha numerous times as you know, as people that, and that’s as much of a goal. Let me phrase that. That’s not the right term. It’s something to aspire to, and you have lived up to that, you know. And I know there’s going to be that day probably in the real distant at the real immediate future, will where you will, because you keep working at it. So I just want to say that, I guess that was the theory of reciprocity coming up. You paid me a compliment, and I that not blown smoke. That’s very real. Thank you. Now you’ve always impressed me as well. So I want to just jump on to our rapid fire here. So just quick answers, I’ll throw them out to you. If you don’t like you don’t want to answer anyone that’s perfectly fine too. What turns you on in the creative process,

Jamie Wiley 1:01:53
the discovery of things that don’t go right?

Chris Baran 1:01:57
Oh, I love it. And what stifles it. Stifles the creativity

Jamie Wiley 1:02:03
process, forcing it, I don’t, don’t force it to let it come. And when it does come, you gotta hit it till it’s hot.

Chris Baran 1:02:14
A thing in life that you love the most, dancing.

Jamie Wiley 1:02:20
Oh, wow, I’m not a good dancer, but I

Chris Baran 1:02:25
I’ll get up there. I’ll get there. Got the moves in life. What do you dislike the most?

Jamie Wiley 1:02:32
Uh, negativity. If you have a negative attitude, get away from me. Don’t like it.

Chris Baran 1:02:42
And in that industry, what are the things that you love the most,

Jamie Wiley 1:02:47
connection, and what are you feeling like?

Chris Baran 1:02:50
Oh, sorry. And what do you dislike the most competition?

Jamie Wiley 1:02:56
I’m in competition of myself, but nobody else got it, yeah,

Chris Baran 1:03:02
a person you admire the most. Oh, my God,

Jamie Wiley 1:03:06
there’s, there’s so many

Speaker 1 1:03:09
Ruth rich

Chris Baran 1:03:11
person that should be admired. I mean, she’s amazing, absolutely stunning, your most prized possession,

Speaker 1 1:03:21
my kids,

Chris Baran 1:03:24
a person, yeah, you wish you could meet,

Jamie Wiley 1:03:34
probably Trevor Sorby, because y’all talk about, I mean, I feel like know him through you

Speaker 1 1:03:39
all but Trevor, sorry,

Chris Baran 1:03:41
yeah, yeah, he’s brilliant, brilliant mind. Something that people don’t know about you. You might have given that away already, but what’s something people don’t know about you?

Jamie Wiley 1:03:53
I have a motorcycle license. I used to have a motorcycle.

Speaker 1 1:04:01
Yeah? The

Chris Baran 1:04:04
if you had a month off, month off, no restrictions, where would you go? What would you do?

Jamie Wiley 1:04:11
I love to travel. So probably. And this is I’ve been all over the world. I’ve lived in Germany, but I would probably go. I haven’t been like West, like Yosemite and, you know, Montana and and Wyoming so West. Love it

Chris Baran 1:04:28
something that terrifies you,

Jamie Wiley 1:04:31
passing away at a young age and leaving my kids. Yeah, that I I’m not afraid of death. I think it’s a part of living, but I want to make sure my kids are are set and really good before I go.

Speaker 2 1:04:48
Gotcha favorite curse word,

Jamie Wiley 1:04:53
holy shit. And because I can’t always say that right on on stage and things like that. So I always say Holy Holy cats.

Chris Baran 1:05:04
Yeah, well, I’ll give you a way to my one of my favorite curse words. But I know on stage I can’t say it. I always say Holy fuchsia. What’s your favorite? Favorite comfort food?

Jamie Wiley 1:05:18
Anything with the dip chips and dip, guacamole, queso,

Chris Baran 1:05:22
hot or hot or mild, like Caliente or mild.

Speaker 1 1:05:27
I’m from Minnesota. I feel like ketchup, spicy, and

Chris Baran 1:05:31
for my Spanish speaking people and friends that are out there, I just said caliente, that’s hot as in touch, but I meant, I meant, which is spicy, they something in the industry that you haven’t done, that you haven’t done before, but you want to

Jamie Wiley 1:05:49
win an Aha, there

Chris Baran 1:05:51
you go. Now, we’re, we’re, we’re, we’re putting that out to the world right now. So the world is now going to come back and give that to you. If you had a do over, a do over in your life, what would that be? And I won’t take, I won’t take that wouldn’t be who I am if I didn’t have those. But what would be one do over? You would do differently.

Jamie Wiley 1:06:13
I would slow down. I was always in a rush to get somewhere. I would slow slow down. That would be my interesting each, each portion where I was at, I would slow down and enjoy it a little bit more interesting.

Chris Baran 1:06:30
The operative word there is enjoy. I love it. Okay, this one I always find interesting. Tomorrow, you couldn’t do hair or anything to do with our industry. What would you

Jamie Wiley 1:06:41
do? Oh, I would,

Speaker 1 1:06:45
gosh,

Jamie Wiley 1:06:48
I would probably be a news anchor.

Speaker 2 1:06:51
Oh,

Jamie Wiley 1:06:55
tonight, channel six.

Chris Baran 1:06:59
I could get ready. Get ready for your teleprompter? Okay, so I’ve got one last question that I want to throw out too. But before I get to that, question is, if people want to get a hold of you or want to know how they can book you or do whatever, just to even contact you for whatever reason, booking, etc, how would they get a hold of you?

Jamie Wiley 1:07:20
So on Instagram and Tiktok, I’m Jamie Wiley editorial, because my first one got hacked, so I’ve had to rebuild it twice. But Jamie Wiley editorial, and then if you want to book me or get a hold of me, Jamie wiley.com Gotcha.

Chris Baran 1:07:36
Okay. Okay. Last question, if you had one wish for our industry. What would it be?

Jamie Wiley 1:07:45
I would say, Just do it like the Nike, yeah, just, just do it. If you’re thinking about it, you got to jump right in, even if you don’t feel ready, that’s where you will get ready. Is in the doing. I have a quote that I live by is, don’t talk about it, be about it. And so just just be it. Be it. Jump right in. Got it. Love it.

Chris Baran 1:08:09
Jamie, I don’t know this is a probably one of the fastest hours that I’ve ever gone through in my life, but I just want to say from the bottom of my heart, it’s always good talking with you. Always good hanging out with you. I love working with you, and you are a talent, and you’re a creative force in our industry. And I just want to say thank you for taking time out of your busy life to be a part of head cases. So thank you.

Jamie Wiley 1:08:33
Thank you so much for having me pleasure.

Chris Baran 1:08:38
Thanks again for watching this episode, and if you liked what you heard, remember to smash that like or follow button, depending on your preferred platform, and make sure to share it with anyone you know that might be a fellow head case. Head cases is produced by cut action media, with Marjorie Phillips doing the planning parts, Lee Baran on the video bits, and Adrian Taverner mixing the audio jazz you.