ep15 – Benni Tognini

This week’s guest has inspired an entire generation of hairdressers. Benni Tognini is an Australian icon, considered the father of avant garde hairdressing.

Benni and his team have won a string of international accolades, including World Master of the Craft. He’s the man behind the powerhouse Togninis brand.

I am so lucky to have Benni as a very good friend, and it was a pleasure to sit down and chat with him about how he got started.

  • Benni’s realization that sports and hairdressing are similar, with patterns in the training, practicing, and discipline.
  • How Benni entered competition after competition and learned the value of failure.
  • The many mistakes that helped him become great.
  • Fear is where you find the answers.

Complete Transcript

Chris Baran 0:00
We discuss some images in today’s chat and you can see them in the podcast videos at www.chrisbaran.com

How great would it be to get up close and personal with the beauty industry heroes? We love and admire and to ask them how did you learn to do what you do? I’m Chris Baran, a hairstylist and educator for 40 plus years, and I’m inviting all our heroes to chat and share the secrets of their success.

This week’s guest has inspired an entire generation of hairdressers. He’s considered the father of avant garde hair. He’s an Australian icon, where out of the last 37 awards, and Australia he or his team have been consistently in the finals or a winner. He is the powerhouse behind the Tognini brand in Australia. In my mind, personally, he is probably among the top 10 creative minds in our industry. So let’s get into this week’s head case. Mr. Benni Tognini

Benni Tognini my dear friend, first of all, I gotta say thank you, you’re in Brisbane, Brisbane, Australia. Time. So I don’t know if it’s five or six in the morning for you. I want to thank you so much for getting up so early. So welcome. It’s great to have you on here, Ben. It’s a pleasure, buddy. Listen, just for the people that are out there. Benni and I have been brothers and friends for like 100 years now, for those of you watching can see by the gray hair. For those of you listening, you’ll probably hear the crokes inner voices are Benni, here’s kind of the gist I want for for the people. I think you’re well known across Australia and in Europe and a lot of United States. But for the people that don’t know, I gave you this glowing report on the inside. But I want to take you back. And I want to first of all, give it a little start at the beginning. So ye hear ye hair, what got you into hair? And like, Did you wake up one morning? And it’s I want to do hairdressing or what was it? did? Was there something else that you were doing? What give us the backstory? How did you get into hair? Listen, it’s actually pleasure to be on and why hair. There was no white hair. It was like a an accident, I believe, which for me was

Benni Tognini 2:31
you know, I was going to school and I was one of those amazing students, you know, like, if you could, if you can understand and paint the picture, what an amazing Angel student that the halo fell down one day, and all of a sudden, my world changed that I became this dark side. And on the dark side became I had to leave school unfortunately, I was asked to leave school politely and find find a new career a new career. And the career was that I wanted to be an architect, you know, my dad was a builder. My dreams was to be an architect, I love things that like, you know, building structures, why? Why things were put together. And I’ll tell you what I totally went from, from wanting to be an architect, went on to the job sites of my dad’s building company. absolutely hated it to going on to the attraction of young girls and beauty and the passion of just just that was the interests and knocking on a salon door and asking if I could come in and just have a trial. And there was my career started then had no idea what was there. No idea.

Chris Baran 4:07
So the so you got in there. Okay, good. So now when you walked in and you just went okay, I want to be an architect and now I’m just gonna go in and I’m in the salon and because tell everybody it’s a little different in in us than it is in the US where you go to a school and then you go into a salon. Tell us a little bit about that. First of all, give us the cliff note on what the training is like in Australia. So

Benni Tognini 4:34
here in Oz, it’s all about, you know, getting in an apprenticeship. The apprenticeship, back then was four years doing your apprenticeship. Once you’ve done your apprenticeship then you’re qualified as a senior hairdresser.

Chris Baran 4:48
So you’re you’re doing you’re doing your training at four years so you go to what certified college training but in the meantime that you’re working in the salon you’re gaining skills with

Benni Tognini 5:00
which is really, really great. Because you’re learning, you’re learning every day you’re experiencing all these great things that that you have an opportunity to do, for me was the experience of just doing that was pretty much the unknown.

Just have to understand that I’m a six foot one topic guy, a fairly large topic guy. Really big hands and these little hands trying to put sitting rollers planning rollers and things like that didn’t happen quite easily. So the mechanics at the beginning, didn’t really work, particularly imagine trying to put things in and everything popping out everywhere, like Mad Men. You know, and everything that I did, because I love sports back then. I’d love soccer and not just just love sport. So everything I did was, I ran from one side into the room to the other side, and everyone was just like you know, it was just kind of totally just everything was just wrong at the beginning. But, you know, the main, you know, Christmas, what was clicked was the day that a purchases had got into my hands. And, and that was it, that that was sold that that’s when everything gelled. And that’s when I understood about structure and, you know, putting things together. And that’s where, like, when the architecture of, you know, putting things together, you know, like developing a haircut and the wise and, and then and for me, that’s, that’s when it all started.

Chris Baran 6:46
Yeah, so that’s so it’s so you’ve got four years of this? Yes. Yeah. No, just as a side note, is that is it? Is it the same way in Australia now? Is it still four years of apprenticeship? Do they have schools, like, just anecdotally, here, in America, there is schools, but the generations that we have, they want to get to it as quickly as they possibly can. And they want to get whether they’re generating income or having their own businesses as quickly? And when I say their own business, behind the chair, et cetera? Is it a give us a comparison in Australia, what it’s like right now?

Benni Tognini 7:24
I don’t think it’s any different. I think it’s it for us, it’s has changed. Now there’s, there’s full time schools, where you, you do a certifying course up to 1500 hours, and you do the whole apprenticeship in that time, then, then you’re up, it’s up to you to go and find a job. And I think that’s there’s that solder, there’s that component, then there’s still the component of you still apply for an apprenticeship in a hairdressing salon. And then you go out and you then do what we called I think it’s called trying to find the right the right word, thank Olivia. See, we

Chris Baran 8:16
probably don’t know what that word is.

Benni Tognini 8:17
Anything, yeah. Just jumped out of their head. Anyway, so it’s it, it’s where they have to just have to qualify of just going through modules. And you’ve got to pass certain and a modules to move on. And what it takes about two and a half to three years to get through that all these modules. And once you’ve once you’ve qualified through all the modules, then you become qualified as a certified hairdresser. And, and the way you go from there, so that’s basically the systems that are put into place here in Australia. So they do have private schools. So you can go along and just do full time training or you know, work in a salon and get an apprenticeship.

Chris Baran 9:12
Yeah, so So the you are working so in that we understand that there is still a bit of difference because here we don’t have to they don’t necessarily have to go through those modules, although there is highly suggested so that you get the quality and get to a least a minimum to or exceeding a minimum standard that there isn’t a salon. So I want to take you back so you’re in the salon you’ve you’ve been through that you’re qualified now. You’ve discovered the scissors. And and so how long were you there before you really got the inkling to open your own business your own salon?

Benni Tognini 9:51
For me, it was it was about 12 years.

Chris Baran 9:56
Really? Yes, it was.

Benni Tognini 9:57
It was a fairly long time. I I think in that time, I’ve worked through a really great, great man who was in, in my town in Brisbane, he, he was the recognise top stylists. And also, he probably was the recognized top Australian stylists. And for me, it was like, Why would I go anywhere else when I’m getting everything that I wanted, I was enjoying what I was doing. I think probably after about six years, like any one, I was working hard, I was booked out, you know, I was approached by lots of salons, I was climbing the ladder, I had my goals, you know, I don’t want to be my first goal was just to be a good stylist, second goal was to have a booked out book, that third goal was to be the best in like, in my town, that and then and then all the other goals became, you know, I wanted to be best in my state and then best in my country. And, and what I realized there was a pattern that it was about the training and discipline. And I realized that it just reminded me of me playing sport, you know, going to training, practicing and working on, on all my skills suited to become better and better. And what I realized out of that was that in the meantime, met I met my beautiful wife, you know that a very young age, she walked into the salon, and that was it. You know, me, it was this, I was gone. And we started our family really, really young. And I realized then that my my basic wage, so that needed to find another job or needed to do something. And I approached him and we opened a salon together, which was down here on the Gulf Coast. And so I was working for, for him in in Brisbane, five days a week. And then on Saturdays and Sundays I was working down at the Gulf Coast at the salon that we had down there with the staff. And in during the week I would travel. So travel would be an hour and a half. And I would go down and train the staff down there and come back. And so it was a seven day, seven days a week.

Chris Baran 12:35
burnout, burnout waiting.

Benni Tognini 12:38
But you know, when you’re young you you’ve got lots of energy, we had two beautiful boys, Kristian and Julian. And my dreams became bigger because I had a lot of time sitting in the car driving. And that’s where all the dreams became. And that’s when I that’s when I started realizing, you know, dreaming is really great. Because though the things that kept on you know, every time I would go down the down the coast every week that was like, What can I achieve? So they were either targets or monetary targets, or they were creative targets. Now what could I do. And then I realized that I was running out of hours of time to do this, then I realized that I could actually work. When I when we finished work in the evening that I could work between the hours of we’d finish at seven o’clock between seven o’clock and and one o’clock two o’clock in the morning working on my designs of hair. And because there was this whole creative force moving towards photography, and there was all this new movement, changing the world was changing, have beautiful work, and it was like, was something that was like, how, how do you do that? And not like today where, you know, communication and technology is just on is just in front of you. You know, I used to wait on the doorstep every six months to get a book that would have all these great photographs around the world of these amazing hairdressers that were what I called my mentors. And I just adore them like, I want to know, I want to know, and how do you do that? So, you know, there was

Chris Baran 14:40
then what give us give us a timeframe of when like we’re seeing that, that when this all happened if you had to give us a timeframe when was that then when all of a sudden you got this epiphany that this is what I wanted to do. You wanted to get into photographic work and what around when was that what was give us a quantify I’m not saying exact time but what Given the year was it,

Benni Tognini 15:02
it would probably be back in two screws. That’s, you know, I, I started and I started my apprenticeship in 75 We opened up, that’s our salon in 87. When I opened our salon in 87, I had the dream to come to America within five years, don’t ask me why. It was just my own personal goal. And you’d have to understand I come to America was I wanted to come to America and do a presentation. Because I just saw these great things happening. So that would that was during that time, but prior to that, and so it would have been nine. I want my first avant garde, probably at 89.

Chris Baran 16:08
Yeah, so we’re talking probably the latter, latter. 80s, early 90s. But yeah, so what so there was a transition that happened there, Ben, were you, you know, always, you know, we have the architecture background, or wanting to be the discovering of the scissors, and how you could create structure. And but then there’s the part in there that a lot of other people listening and watching right now are going well, how did you get to that? What was the transition? Like? What was the spark that hit you? I want to do two things. And I’m just going to write down one of my questions. So I don’t get confusing here. But I want to like what was the thing? Well, you and I have a similar background, where we love the avant garde, creating something that somebody might never wear publicly. But just to show off your art, I want to know, I want to dig a little deeper on that. What what Where did that come from? And why was that so important to you?

Benni Tognini 17:01
To go back, because I think competitions, competition was probably really important for me, because it was the measuring stick. But I think everyone needs to know that competitions was the thing that I learnt to fail so much. You know, I competed in,

Chris Baran 17:24
hold on stay that say that, again. Say that again. No, that’s really, really important.

Benni Tognini 17:30
Competitions was something that I learned to fail. And by learning to fail, was the the many, many mistakes that I made, was the thing that I let what I became good at. To turn that around was Chris was you have to understand, this wasn’t I had a natural ability to do hairdressing. This, I needed to learn and, and men, but I just didn’t have a mentor. There was no one there to teach me. So it was self taught. And the only way that I would do this is by doing it. And but you know, the best thing that I love about when you lose is how you lose and how you get up. And, and I for me personally is you can be a loser in life. And you can stay down and you will always stay a loser. A loser if he gets up and he takes on another challenge or another, you know, another

Chris Baran 18:49
challenge challenge another

Benni Tognini 18:52
you know, you grow and, and for me Knowledge is power. And then I think you know, as soon as that that stops, that that’s been that’s been all that just that does not that growth does not happen. And so that was probably one thing. And it’s not that I knew that back then, like I know it now. And it’s easy to talk about it now but back then was I was just hiding under a rock all the time. I felt I felt ashamed I felt you know, I wasn’t worthy. And, but, but I just knew that I just wanted to do it. Right. You know, I just thought well, if I need to do this, right? I want to be like everyone else. I can do this because hairdressing is a taught theme. You know, like cut hair from point A to point B is a port is a taught thing. That flare of it, or the way you touch it is the flare. And that’s the way you’ve entered the field. That’s a whole different thing. And when you hear people, like, I remember saying to my boss, you had such a way of touching it, and you had a feel for it. And I kept asking him, Can you teach me that? And he just looked at me thought I had two heads. And it’s really great, because everyone that I teach now, that’s probably what I like teaching is the feel like, yes, it’s one thing teaching, you know, the, the ABCs of it, but the feel of it, and the finesse of it, is what makes the difference, you know, make someone you know, Right, Up is a hair there or so, though, that was probably the foundations of of that sort of made me what that that bit made me then realize, because I couldn’t, because it was the big hands. And the setting part of the of my hairdressing that I probably didn’t buy the avant garde part was doing the wigs. And it was having the mannequin heads. They didn’t talk to you, and you practice on it. So it then became interesting, because that’s when I started practicing, putting things in my head attaching things, and then realize this was a lot more fun than what I thought it was. And the avant garde side of it just became bigger and bigger and crazier and crazier. Then I discovered that I actually had a very crazy mind, and what could you do that, and it then became a very interesting journey, when the award started having this section of creative avant garde section, and it was an expression of this, of hair, and, you know, I kept on calling it an expression of, of art. And I’d have to agree what you say, that’s what it was, because, you know, you wouldn’t see people walking down the street at that, back then. It was just a sculpture, just like a piece of timber, iron, or whatever. So it was really quite amazing. And, you know, then we moved on with go down quite a few years later, and then having having this put into a Museum of Contemporary Art, of all this amazing work was probably a pinnacle of one of one of my things, which I think it’s you know, it’s, it’s a compliment to the hair worlds, but it’s just a compliment to, to what we do. Yeah, and

Chris Baran 23:04
what I love Ben is what you’re saying there, especially about you being able to have that in a museum, because I want to show Benni I want to bring some of that stuff up. I planned it for a little bit later, but I think it’s so appropriate right now. But if you’re want to just if you’re listening to the podcast, I highly suggest if you just go over into and you watch the YouTube connection that’s attached it’s on the the website as well as you’ll be able to see the work and um, I want to just give a little bit of of the things Yeah, just start right here. So just for if you’re watching right now this is everybody knows about when you have textured hair and you’re building a shape into it and everybody’s done it but this was this shot what was approximately what year did you do this?

Benni Tognini 23:50
Shoot this was early, early 90s 90s,

Chris Baran 23:55
early 93 And it just for those of you Yeah, for those of you listening and met just a man I want you to imagine just seeing a little face and then having this this beautiful hat like shape that is you know what we would have called afros in those days but highly textured hair built into a form and it’s just so such a simple simple line that is so stunning and I think you happen to win awards with this one did you not Ben?

Benni Tognini 24:27
Yeah, we we won an amazing award with this this particular one. And what I loved about this one is that it’s just purely it shot it has not been touched the photography and gold is no

Chris Baran 24:41
fault there’s no photoshopping

Benni Tognini 24:44
you know, just purely your work on it. And when you capture it, you capture it. You did three APO rigs in this. The models just stunning the lighting was just it was just magic. happened. It’s still Yeah, still today. It’s one of those iconic

Chris Baran 25:06
pieces. Yeah. And I always stepped on you before Ben. But I want to make sure that like as this was Ian Golding, I shot with Ian as well, when you came out, and we shot together on some stuff at EA, and just this phenomenal photographer, and I want to make sure he gets credit where credit’s lead, just give us the give us the next one on here. And I went from that into this because what I loved about this shot, it’s so simple. With these, and I don’t even know what you would it’s almost like a, this little fuzzy balls that are made out of hair. So give us a little How did first of all, for those of you that are watching, how did you do it? For those listening? How did you create that

Benni Tognini 25:50
this is a this is actually my very first very first piece. Oh, so it was a piece that I did, it’s it’s sort of just obviously had that was collected on the floor. So back then it was like I had filed, I had files of her that are collected, and just kept putting them away. And then what I realized that, when you put it everything in a brown paper bag, it would just saw matted together. And then and then you just when you just spray it, it would start sticking together. And then you could just form it. Like, if you were making dough, you know, like if you’re making bread, and you’re rolling it. And this This is when I won the very first avant garde in 1997. In, in Australia, so I won the Australian avant garde award with this, this particular photograph with a few others. And that was Yeah, and that’s and it just it started then it was really it was just really interesting. In shot this in in Golding with my photographer. During my whole time, we we were too young, two young lads. And we met to meet and we stuck together. And we spent a lot of time together. And it was just a great relationship that we built

Chris Baran 27:26
this I mean, it’s it’s a stunning it’s a stunning, but it’s a stunning piece. So, you know, just, I just want people to know that think about this hair that’s on the floor. And you’ve got a mind that goes okay, look at matted together, but look at what could I do with it? That’s what’s so stunning about this? Because that’s not what it looks like when it comes out here and thinking, How the hell did you do that. And I think that’s what’s when you’re looking at any kind of work, if you can say if it can be so clever, that you’ve done something with it that nobody can figure out how the heck you did it. And I think that’s what’s what’s so beautiful about this bend so bleak. Let’s go to the next shot. Now this one, this was, you know, there’s, you’ll see this one. And so this is kind of a setup I’ve set up. And I think you’ll know the piece I’m talking about that we’re going to talk about later, where this was done with hair, but you’ve also done with other materials. We’ll talk about that in a bit. But just for people that are out there, if you can imagine right now, imagine these beautiful waves that are flowing, but sharp, almost like ribbon. So this is hair. Yes. This is head and so how did

Benni Tognini 28:36
the concept came was that we’re with the kids in the park. And there was this we’re underneath a beautiful tree and we’re having a picnic and all these leaves are rolling around on the ground and picking up a leaf and when you have a really dry leaf that has this similar texture, so it’s goes hard. And then I started working on you know, how do we how do I make a hair that hard and still have shine and and so we started repping hair and back then, you know we’re we’re so so reckon and we would work with all the wreckin products and we you know create these amazing shapes by wrapping it around, you know, anything that had ran this so there was some small pipes, large pipes, and then we just started cutting it and then putting it together and and then crazy enough it was just like okay, let’s just start you know, putting it on someone’s head and let’s start putting it on someone’s clothes as you can see on the side there and and then and then we just shot it. It was just like a catalyst to shoot it stuff.

Chris Baran 29:57
And it just so it’s so Oh clean.

Benni Tognini 30:01
You know what, and Christian, I love it. I haven’t even looked at these photographs for 20 years now. And I just finished judging an award. And I just I’m laughing inside because I’ve just see so much of these structures in some of the shots that I’ve just seen in unwed. Wow, it’s just, it’s amazing to see how things just look go around and move around. Nice.

Chris Baran 30:36
Yeah, it’s that’s the beauty of art of why it’s so and I’m gonna kind of spin back a little bit to what we were talking about earlier because we’re talking about avant garde and, and the transition that you make. And I want to, for the people that are listening and watching I want to if you Benny went through like imagine you he started whatever nine o’clock in the morning went to seven o’clock and then from have a have a bit Enosh and then go till one o’clock in the morning creating avant garde work. We’re not saying for an instance that to be a top artists that that’s what you have to do. But you do have to budget time, in order to get invent your creativity, because it’s like a muscle. The more that you use it, the more creative you become with it rather than because it’s it’s about how you use a disciplines. And that’s what that is so beautiful how, you know, if you think about the composition of shots, as you can still use what you use for composing hair. But when you’re doing avant garde, so it’s still got movement, it’s still got separation, you can still see, see through some pieces into it, so it’s got dimension to it. Okay, next shot. Next shot, Mr. Lee. This one is absolutely beautiful. Give us a little bit of backstory on this one, Ben.

Benni Tognini 31:52
This, actually, this was inspired by a wonderful hairdresser, a wonderful master of hairdressing is Trevor Sorbie. And I think Trevor, back then did a collection and, and I was just curious on how he did it. And this was my interpretation of one of his looks that he did. But this is just pretty much 80% of the model’s hair. So it was you know, it was just all molded and slick. And just the very 20% of the of the hairpiece that sort of sitting on top that sort of came, came through and opened up. But I think just the lighting and just the color of it, it’s just so stunning. I think that was just captured just beautifully. You know, this was probably one of my pieces that I didn’t like when we did the collection it probably wasn’t as strong as what I liked it. But I actually like it more so now than what I liked it when my first year. It’s amazing to go back and have a look at it.

Chris Baran 33:13
And when you because it’s funny that you say it’s not strong, because I think to the average locker right now because I want to three listening right now just imagine everything calmed, quasi forward, but then around the face longer pieces just sculpted around the face and on the cheek, and it’s got an asymmetric quality. And then almost like very fine hair. That’s almost tree like almost bonsai tree like, and, and, and all very, very dark and heavy shine. So Ben, tell me why. Because I see this is very strong. So why What did you see as not strong about it?

Benni Tognini 33:47
Because I think this was part of that collection that I won the award. And all the other the all the other pieces were this bigger and thicker. And you know, this was more refined. And I mean, this was probably the hardest one because this took all my skills of using the models there. Then having a lot of pieces. But it was just like, you know, it was it was probably the shock at the end of the day. And you got to go, Okay, I’ve got six models to do. And I’ve got to come up with the six month and it’s ended the day. And, and you one and sometimes that’s the best shot. And I’m looking at it. Yeah, exactly. I’m looking at it and I’m thinking like, where did this come from? I was like we were in and it was probably the sixth shot was probably taken to it was going to be on to the next the next year. You know, like it was like I was leaving and saying goodbye to what I was doing. And I was now working for the NEC See? So it was, it was the crossover. And you know, and I remember sitting there and this is the one that I would kept on going not why, but why but Move on, move on. And I just laugh now I look at it and go, Wow, that’s not bad.

Chris Baran 35:16
Yeah. Yeah. Because it is stunning. It is. Okay. Lee, the next one. Yeah, it is. And that so I think that for the people that are listening right now, you’ll see that now why Benny is talking about bigger, stronger, etc. So this one, just tell us a little bit about that. How did you get that hair to move in those manners?

Benni Tognini 35:47
I think first the outfit I did buy in New York. I remember this little outfit, because I bought it for Tracy, my wife. And I think I was away for about five weeks. And she just laughed at me because she said you obviously been away too long

Chris Baran 36:15
just for those people listening, it is skimpy. And you would hardly notice that there was anything there on the only thing that you notice is really on her legs. Rest of it, there’s not too much there. Okay, back to the hair. The the the hair was not How did you get the hair to move in that manner.

Benni Tognini 36:34
So this is all pieces and, and obviously it’s done on wires. And all the hair is been it’s been knotted. And and then it’s just all the hairs. It’s all correct. So it has that further like texture. And the and the important part is to to make make the wig look like it’s moving. And it’s connected. In that I think that’s really, really important. But I think when we when we did it, it, it looked great just being like that. And then we put the white pieces in there just to create another text another texture like the outfit, because the outfit had this snatching concept to it. But it had these white white pieces through it. And so we we actually added it on when we’re doing the shoot. And on the day, and in this photograph was done by Ian, but I have to give credit to all the all the makeup on all my models was done by my wife, Tracy, Tracy with my, my makeup, my makeup artists on all color photoshoots she would probably be the only person that would understand what I wanted, because I would just do it. And I could never talk to anyone what I wanted, but just I would just do it. And I go you know, like just do it face to makeup, just do it. And I get what you’re what do you want longer? I’m like, That’s the look. And she actually created. So it was always great to working with us because it was always you know, we we talked about it she she saw the week coming alive because we exist to take months to put together wigs lived in our house 24/7 And they still live in our house. Now we you know, we have a we groom and we have a whole department that that just lives there. Yeah. So it’s I think that’s, I think that’s that’s, that’s the beauty of it.

Chris Baran 39:00
Yeah, that next one. Photos. I mean, I just listened. That’s what like I knew you before you knew me. And and we’ll talk about that in just a short bit here. We just got a couple more photos. But I mean, what I love about it, these photos were done years ago, but they’re timeless and and still to this day. Still people are still copying the styles and you still see them out today. And if we wouldn’t have said that these were from a certain era, people would have never known. Yeah, so tell us about this one.

Benni Tognini 39:36
Yeah. Chris, this is probably this is sort of mid 90s. I went through two years of not creating anything or being at home. And you know, go through it actually this is really interesting. I mean your life, where you have a blank, and you know, you you’re not creating, sometimes you doubt everything you doubt everything that you do. You know, and I had those times and I was laying, you know, what’s the typical laying on the couch, they’ll be putting on not 10 kilos, which is not enough, how many pounds that is 22 pounds, 22 pounds, you know, feeling sorry for myself because, you know, you have all the highs, and then you have all the loads. And then I was you know, searching and I was just watching a lot of television and, and this is all this to be all the cables behind the TV, and television. And this is all, that’s all cable. And so I just started playing with that. So I started, you know, I got a staple gun taken things, and I started making shapes. And, you know, after, after a week of making all these shapes, there was just a whole floor of all these shapes on the floor. And, you know, Tracy would call these circles come home, and there would be circles and there would be SS. And there would be, then there would be the alphabet. Don’t actually what I was doing, but I was I was lost. And but I was searching. And but then I don’t know, you know, like, I It’s like anything you start, you start standing up on your two feet and in the, in the stand back and you look at the picture. And you take another step back and you see the pitch of even more, and then the pitch started. It started becoming I could see it. And then I started for me, I started believing in myself. And I grant I could see this I could see this and you know, like that, that feeling came back. And then I’ve thought that yeah, you know, you need to add some hair to it you need to movement, like I need to get back to it. You know, I need to you know, still make it look beautiful. And you know and then I showed Tracy and I started putting it on on a mannequin head and you know, she started playing with the makeup and you know we you know we went back and forth and and and that was the end result we just did one shot and that was it you know, you know, I knew that I actually didn’t want to take the shot off her. I wanted to shadow what was behind her. That was what I was aiming for. And I had a lot of shots of the shadow and then strangely enough as we were going through all the shots we just got this shot and I just looked at it and I went that’s it that’s the one that’s the magic and

Chris Baran 43:01
okay, then I just want to I want to fast forward to this next shot I think this shot here is that’s the steel one I want to know I want to just jump that I know we I just want to make sure this really quickly this was what because I want to I want to talk about this one in real quick and then I want to move on to just that last one so this one was what how did you make this shot because it it’s just a stunning like a splash of hair almost. Yeah, this

Benni Tognini 43:29
was a we did a show and it was called a storm and we recreated a storm on stage where you know we had you know we it was a lightning and rain and thunder and so all the pear pieces when that all happened it this this flashlight just shattered and when all the light hit the the models this is what hit and this is how old hair looked like like this this this shattered everything and it and you nailed it is a shattered shattered look in that and it’s just and it’s all that

Chris Baran 44:20
well that’s the beauty of it. And I’m gonna encourage everybody if you’re listening right now as opposed to watching at the you need to go back and look at the photographs because I’m sure you’re wondering what they look like right now and where it’s it’s hard to describe but you need to go back to the website. Watch the just watch the you know, you can fast forward through this stuff and just to look at the images. Stunning Okay, the last one is coming up here right one, you’ll know the one I’m talking Oh no, there is one more. This one again. This one was you this was all Cray pair woven and you made a complete dress out of it. Yeah,

Benni Tognini 44:55
yeah, this is all fish, fish braids.

Chris Baran 45:00
Yeah, fishtail

Benni Tognini 45:01
fishtail braids. This is actually Tracy taught me how to break, like I couldn’t break. And I wanted to break down and, and she taught me the braid and got carried away. And I kept reading and writing and writing. And, and this shot was a live shoot that we did on stage. And this was just, this was a Polaroid shot. So this was not even, this was not even a photo shoot. What we did, we just did this is the test. Yeah, this was this that hair Expo, we did a program called Zoom. And we were just teaching young hairdressers how to put a press pack together. And, you know, taking from a photoshoot to a photo, how to put it back in and go forward from there.

Chris Baran 46:01
Yeah, if you’re listening, just imagine sort of a very Medusa like feel of blonde hair. And then all of the dress almost like a cocoon kind of dress, built up of the same thing. And usually that I find that if you make an address out of hair it’s in I’ll just, well, we’ll just leave it at, it’s interesting. But this is stunning. That it is hair, and it looks beautiful, it does look like material, I want to get to the next shot here. Because this is the one that and I just you always have played with other materials. So in a short form short form, tell us where this came from, and tell us what the material is,

Benni Tognini 46:42
very quickly. This is. This is like dregs. So I used to have lots of dreads in my hair. This was captured from a drill that was drilling a piece of steel. And this is how we actually ended up making this this week, I went to the factory where they’ve made roller doors, and the the steel from the roller door that they they make and they were drilling that and this is how the as a drill, this is how this the steel comes out. And it comes out a very springy coiling, which is just like a dread, and went down there. And he he just kept drilling and drilling and drilling. And I just would collect bags of it. And I would take it home. And then I start putting it together. And we made a whole video of it. And we shot it. And we actually ended up shooting the whole shoot in his factory, you know, with all the sparks and everything. And probably this is the probably the one that that just goes everywhere. And I think this is the one that we did for the record symposium.

Chris Baran 48:07
Yeah, you did. This is I don’t think this is one that we met. But this is one you came back another time and did this one. And it was interesting, because of you everybody can imagine I just want to know how much how many cuts were on your fingers when you were making this piece because if you can imagine was ever imagined drilling metal, having metal shavings, etc. It leaves a real sharp edge. You know, so I can only imagine how much you cut your hands when this was going on hairdressing soft hands. Yeah, yeah, but a stunning piece. And just what I love about this band is just how your mind goes is that it’s not doesn’t have to be just hair. It’s what can I do with other things to make it look like hair and to make it beautiful at the same time. So Ben, your work is always always so stunning. So I just want to say okay, that’s and I want to just go back now as to what pushes you because I’ve heard a couple of stories in there where you said that either you’ve got down on yourself and whatever but what really pushes you

Benni Tognini 49:14
Chris, that’s a good question, man. What pushes me is, is not doing something the same and gotten and I suppose that’s what gets me gets me going and gets me and I’d probably bashes me up. And I know that you know, I have two beautiful boys who’s in the industry and, and my two, my two sons have taken over our business. And still my Tracy and I are in the business. But it’s probably from this year that you know, I’ve taken a step back and and I think the best thing that I’ve just learned by taking a step back is that So my career activities come back. And, and I think, you know, doing things differently is probably my motto, you know, being average scares the shit out of me. So, when I can’t

Chris Baran 50:19
there’s a t shirt in there, there’s a t shirt in there.

Benni Tognini 50:24
You know, you know, I have some met some really great people along the way. And you have to be probably the number one person that I met who change that, that journey for me when I met you at the wreckin symposium, and then I, you know, I have to tell this story, because it’s very close to my heart and that I don’t think if I, if that didn’t happen, excuse me, I’m getting a bit a bit emotional here. If that didn’t happen, my career wouldn’t kicked off the way it did. And, you know, Chris, you, you, you guided me through a really hard time, that it was really good advice. For me to actually

Chris Baran 51:16
tell the story to people know what happened, it’s okay,

Benni Tognini 51:20
I had had a wonderful opportunity to come to America. And that was my dream. And we did the wrecking symposium, and I brought these drafts the amazing, yeah, the amazing weeks. And I remember that, I was asked that I needed to tone it down. And I had a few words to say, in Australian language, and pull me aside, and I was prepared to go home that was packing up to went stuff that I’m going home, you know, this is not for me, Chris pulled me aside and shared with me that, that, you know, there was a lot of talent here, and there was a way to share that, and there was a way to, to understand it. And, and I won’t go into, you know, the whole story. But, you know, the advice that he gave me was, to see it in a in in a different way. And it would treat you a lot differently. And I think this just that coaching and advice. Change changed me, it changed the way I would see things and it changed the way that how I approach approach my life. Especially with trying to understand that you know, what I was doing, because sometimes when you’re when you’re asked, so different, and to be understood, it’s, it’s it is different, and it is hard, and it’s frustrating. And you have all the all all the things of flash frustration, anger, and, and no one’s hearing you. But there is a way to share that. And in all you want it to be is to be heard. And sometimes it’s just the way it’s been shared, and how it’s been presented. And, and I know that Chris has really helped me with that. And I really thank you, my friend for that

Chris Baran 53:51
is where we became brothers, you know, the, the, you know, and just to let everybody know, I did not to leave this hanging. But you know, there was North America and Australia have, there’s different parameters, what you can and cannot do on stage and so on. And some of that came to affair. But the whole point is that once you and I had that chat, then you went out and you did this phenomenal show, probably one of the better shows that had ever been done. Insofar as avant garde work that was out there and people went cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs over and I and I really believe that’s when you know, because right from there, had you did that and then all of a sudden all of these other opportunities came along when they saw the quality of your work. So I you know, I think that was great in the end and I and I cherish that time because had we not been together there I might have never never had the opportunity to meet you and we’ve been we’ve holidayed together. We’ve went through all of this and I know you as probably one of the people that I know that is more tenacity, that and I want to take it kind of back to where, as you said that you You, it’s not that you enjoy the failing, but the failing was something that you had to go through in order to practice some get it right and get it right. And most people don’t want to do that. They don’t want to go through the fail and the feeling of it that to get to the other side, where the other side is where all the success and the feeling and all of that lives. So then, you know, that’s what, that’s where I see you, as, you know, what do you notice the difference? Go ahead,

Benni Tognini 55:28
which is gonna say this, or not, didn’t close that, you know, that? The fear is where the answer is, then if you, you know, like, a lot of people just walk away from it, and just take it, take it on, you know, like, you’re gonna, you’re gonna learn something, and what are you scared of learning something, you know, that that’s what I just keep on that, that’s what keeps keeps it going as saying, you want to learn something you want to grow, you want to, you know, get, don’t, you don’t, you want to just get down and just breathe and this have a new breath. And that new breath brings new life. And that’s what I this really enjoy. And I just go, I just love the challenges that I just took on. If you didn’t take those challenges, then we would not, we would not learn to step up. And, you know, they shared something really, really important to some of these young kids. Just last week, with we had the young Fang team here in Australia. And I said, you know, there’s a difference between someone who’s 19 and 35. And you compete against each other. And you have to understand that it’s okay to be 19. And it’s okay to be 35. But the difference between the 19 and 35 is, is life life experience. And stop fighting against that. Because the time you turn 35, you’re going to share that 19 year old what you learned. So respect. And if you can respect what life gives you, then you’re going to learn something. And it’s just so powerful. And we just don’t take time just to take that deep breath and disrespect. It’s just

Chris Baran 57:40
then you said something a minute ago that I found was so profound in and I’m going to kind of equate this to what we’re talking about to you. Everybody knows adrenaline junkies, and like, for anybody who’s listening and watching right now, my son Lee is the gentleman that’s producing this and, but he’s an adrenaline junkie, he will go off, jump off of anything, dive off of anything jumped out of airplanes, he loves that stuff. I am not an adrenaline junkie, you know, is I will not jump out of a perfectly good airplane. But however, and when you talked about the fear and the the adrenaline that it shoots you, when you’re trying these new things, and failing, kind of what I equate that to is, I’m an adrenaline junkie, and you’re an adrenaline junkie, when it comes, you thrive on that rush that you get from Yeah, you might fail at it. I mean, you only fail. I don’t want to fail at skydiving. That’s not something I want to fail at. But, but I, you know, failing at hair is a lot easier. But sometimes the feeling that you get out of it, like entering a competition and you don’t win and you put your heart and your soul into it and people it maybe you don’t even when you don’t get in the finals, that that makes you can either say well screw it, I quit. Or you can say, dammit, you want something, okay, let me show you something. And that’s where that adrenaline can kick in and really make it really make you give your creativity a boost. You know, your thoughts on that?

Benni Tognini 59:16
Well, I always say that, you know, be prepared because you don’t go into into life to fail. And then I know that with all our team members, whatever we do, and you know, we think this year is the seventh year of making the finals or we won wards in in Australia here anyway. Have you know, a team member or someone in that team that made the finals of one and it’s in pure is that be prepared? Because you don’t do You don’t go into life to fail. And so what do you need to do? And then that and that, and that’s the biggest thing that, that that’s what taught me, you know, I just keep telling the same story, you know? Yep, this is the, this is why you practice, this is the time you practice to learn to fail. This is the time that we learn, and we work on all these things to make us what we need to be. Because you have ownership of all the knowledge, no one can take that away. Everything that’s in your possession around you people can take, but no one can take what’s in your head, in your mind, in in your hands. And, and, you know, I really believe that since y team jogging is so strong in when we go into compete, because we have one focus and one goal. And it’s so nice that my two boys have that sense of what they do. In in, in their life and their business. And, and they just, and it’s so great. And I’m so proud of them because they just go out there and, and they hungry. And they go you know that, you know, we fucked up and I go, what did you learn? What would you do differently? And let’s just move on.

Chris Baran 1:01:39
So, I want to go back to this because you know, you’re, you’ve got this incredible legacy that’s happening for you. Number one is not only the work you’ve done, and so on, but your family legacy, because like the people that are listening may not know, but that there’s this duo that happened when you were building it that was building the salon and the reputation. And that that came from you, Benni, and from your wife, Tracy, that, you know, Tracy was, you know, I understand that it’s I have a similar relationship. So if I say Tracy was the brains, I mean, the financial, she handled all of all the other what did it take to make the machine go? You’re the creative force. And it’s interesting that your two boys, they’ve kind of taken over those roles within your businesses, right? Yeah. How about that? Yeah. How did that work? Yeah, well, listen, that’s a thank God because that that keeps you going. Right? Yeah. So listen, the I’ve got I just want to I got some rapid fire stuff that I can throw at you. Okay. So a series of questions here. You may or may or may or may not have answered this one way, but I just real quick, short answers. That I’m going to throw them out too. First thing that comes to your mind. Okay? What turns you on in the creative process?

Benni Tognini 1:03:07
Change, change, change, change,

Chris Baran 1:03:09
change? Good. What stifles it for you.

Benni Tognini 1:03:14
People who want change?

Chris Baran 1:03:17
Oh, interesting. An event or show that you love the first one that comes to your mind? Something you did that one of your shows that you did first one that comes to your mind that just went? Oh my god.

Benni Tognini 1:03:31
Actually would have to be my first record symposium.

Chris Baran 1:03:35
Wow. That’s awesome. That was okay. In life in life, things that you dislike the most? Not necessarily in here in life. What do you you walk around in the street, driving your car, whatever that might be things in life that you dislike the most

Benni Tognini 1:04:00
people who don’t care about homeless people.

Chris Baran 1:04:03
Oh, wow. Okay, things that you love the most?

Benni Tognini 1:04:12
I’m gonna, because at the moment, it’s it’s my hat’s off to the homeless people at the moment. That’s where I’m at.

Chris Baran 1:04:25
Is an NRA even those are supposed to be rapid answers. I’m curious as to why is this always been there? Or is it something that’s a narrative that’s come up in the last well,

Benni Tognini 1:04:34
you know, it’s it started 10 years ago, and it was giving back. And then it’s now built this army of people. It started with three people and now they’re 3800 people working. And

Chris Baran 1:04:52
now I want to stop I want to stop here because I No, these are supposed to be rapid fire questions. But this part is really is really important. So Tell us the backstory on like, what? Cuz you’re talking about it started off with three and that was 3000. What’s it called? Why did you start it? And what do you do when you’re in it?

Benni Tognini 1:05:12
So it started 10 years ago, when Japan had the big tsunami, and a professor of business and her husband, who was in the Queensland Police Force was flying over to Japan for a holiday, they unfortunately landed in Manila, because they couldn’t land in Japan. And they were in, in a pub, having a drink, and two nuns turned up. And they asked a question, what to nuns doing in a in a pub. And they were just saying, we’re just trying to make everyone aware of homeless young people who are sleeping on the streets tonight. And she made a comment of, well, how can we help? They said, you know, what, can what, what could you offer? And she said, We don’t know. And anyway, cut the story short, she, they started just doing dress making, so they wanted to teach them how to how to do dress making, you know, doing clothes, making clothes. So the first year they did that, and they said after that, how can what you know, what else can we do? And she said, you know, hairdressing, so she So what she did was she she brought 10 people over to Manila. And they started the dressmaking teaching. And so she came back to Brisbane, she put an ad out for hairdressers that would be interested in to go to Manila. A friend of mine answered that message. He said to me said what do you think I went? Yeah, sounds great. Let’s do it. At that stage, I was at that stage on the couch and looking for something. And that’s it, let’s do it. Went over touched my heart. You know, I you know, luckily, I you know, had our first grand grandchild and I just related to a lot of these children that were that needed needed help. And all we did was just teach teach hairdressing and amazing thing. And I’m just gonna say that amazing thing that I never thought in my whole life I could do was teach hair dressing in one week, what I teach in four years. So yeah, all the things that we would teach one length with graduation layering, you know, fading, we would teach these these people. The best thing was, do we take these people out of prostitution, taking stock people selling their children off to, to these prostitution homes, and give them some some way to earn money to stop that so they could feed their family? Yeah. So it just started from there. We started putting it out throughout Australia. It grew, it grew up in, in Canada, it started growing throughout America and through Europe. Here in Australia, we have over 60 homeless shelters that we go out on on on evening. Homeless people say, but it’s not. It’s just just helping people and having the opportunity to do that. And my role is just to create an army. And purely that’s what I do now is just talk about it. Create an army of people, get them sign up. I’m not asking, you know, asking anyone for money, I just asked him full time. Your time is valuable. And you you make a difference. And if two hours, every six weeks makes a difference. Then I think you know what our industry does for us. You can give back two hours of that every six weeks would be awesome. So It’s just growing and growing. We, you know, we’re learning so much, because it’s getting so big and, you know, learning about organizations and things like that. That’s the probably the ugly, ugly side of it. But, you know, all I’m interested in is just getting out there and getting cutting in and just doing just doing the hair cuts. Yeah.

Chris Baran 1:10:26
What’s, what’s the man? What’s the, what’s the people want to know about it? What’s it called? It’s called hair. Right? Very clear. Why red hair aid?

Benni Tognini 1:10:37
Yep, just go online here. How

Chris Baran 1:10:39
can they get up, it’s was, here’s a website, that’s called hair aid.

Benni Tognini 1:10:44
Just type in here,

Chris Baran 1:10:46
you can get you can get on it. And they will tell you how to do and what to how to do.

Benni Tognini 1:10:51
It has all the information, it has all the trips, we have all the trips to Manila, Cambodia, to, to Vietnam, I mean, has all the countries, as you know, we we would we take on, we take on different people. And we do a mentor ship of training people to become leadership’s and so they can go back into their own countries and start their own things. And that’s an n as we, as we now are doing that. Because now we realize that every country has their own own issues. And we would love to see that happen in their own countries, not only supporting other countries. But the experience of this traveling the experience of different people getting involved to we, you know, in America, we have a really great support of the I think it’s Paul, Paul Mitchell.

Chris Baran 1:11:56
Mitchell helps you with that I

Benni Tognini 1:11:57
have their training company, there’s a group of young people that they get involved and they apply and they have to, you know, show us that they they are seriously interested in I think we ended up taking 10 People from there and bring him over to to Cambodia and Manila and get them involved. But, you know, once a bunch of once you go along to a program, you just get touched and you can’t

Chris Baran 1:12:33
I think it changes you as a person, doesn’t it? It does.

Benni Tognini 1:12:36
And it’s not for everyone. And you know, like I you know, if someone said this, to me at the beginning of my of my career, I probably wouldn’t even understand. But, you know, I take all our apprentices along, it helps, it helps their them for their training, it helps them to understand that people in need it works both ways. So, you know, at the moment that’s dear to my heart. So, you know, it’s something that, you know, I look at it and going okay, well, that’s where I’m at the moment and that’s what I’m getting back. But, you know, look, it’s it’s gone beyond beyond that now. Which I’m in super, super excited. Because, you know, for us here in Australia, you know, the government’s slowly getting behind it, which is absolutely wonderful. But we, you know, we had to learn, we had to learn all, you know, one one step at a time, but we need to put in place so, thank you for asking. I really appreciate that.

Chris Baran 1:13:46
God bless for that. Thank you. Yeah, it’s that’s the way of giving back and I just been, I admire you so much for that. So listen, okay, back to it here. Okay, the money quick, the most difficult time in your life

Benni Tognini 1:14:04
Wow. I think back difficult time in life is was probably the last couple of years with COVID You know, just yeah, just trying to make decisions that you know, we were going to be open or we’re going to be close. What’s the future going to be? But you know, COVID for us here in Australia has changed because it’s actually increased our business. It’s done the opposite.

Chris Baran 1:14:38
Yeah, interesting. Yeah. It Chris it has Okay next one person you had person you would. person you admire the most person you admire the most

Benni Tognini 1:14:55
in my career, or just

Chris Baran 1:14:58
anybody In general

Benni Tognini 1:15:02
I wish there would have to be my wife I know that sounds strange that she’s she’s she’s the force she’s she’s the rock she’s she’s the casing of my life she’s yeah she’s see sees my garden. see God’s

Chris Baran 1:15:24
love IT person you wish you could meet living dead whatever it doesn’t matter. I’ll bring them back for you

Benni Tognini 1:15:37
person I’d love to meet is ness and that wonderful president of South South Africa Nelson Mandela.

Chris Baran 1:15:52
Oh Nelson Mandela Wow

Benni Tognini 1:15:59
yep, yep sir.

Chris Baran 1:16:01
No, go ahead. I didn’t mean to cut

Benni Tognini 1:16:04
that out. It’ll be a long story. Yeah.

Chris Baran 1:16:07
Okay, good. Something people don’t know about you.

Benni Tognini 1:16:14
Bing Bing and Joe

Chris Baran 1:16:17
being in jail. I didn’t know that about you. We won’t go into the story. Don’t want to know why. You’re out and that’s the most important thing. Okay, good. Okay, I like this. I’m giving you I’m giving you a month off where would you go and what would you do?

Benni Tognini 1:16:33
Definitely go to Italy. And I knowing knowing me I would just love eating. Let’s go around the league is eating the best food

Chris Baran 1:16:48
and the occasional glass of wine. Okay, good. The things that things that terrify you. Myself, like I’m terrified of spiders. And God knows you saw that when I was in Australia. They have spiders that their size of your fist.

Benni Tognini 1:17:05
Yeah. myself. I’m very proud of myself for what I do.

Chris Baran 1:17:13
Okay, good. This this one favorite curse word we can we can blank it out beep it out if you want but we favorite curse word

Bloody hell. Bloody bloody hell love it. Okay, your favorite comfort food? pasta. Pasta have something something in the industry you haven’t done? But want to

Benni Tognini 1:17:49
Wow. I’ve done it wouldn’t happy.

Chris Baran 1:17:57
Wow. There you go. I’m happy. Okay, if I say a do over, do you know what? If I say a do over? Do you know what I mean? No. Okay, do over is you know, if you did something in your life, and you go Oh, shit. But then you could say okay, here, you can have a do over so you can do it again. In your life. If you had one do over what would it be?

Benni Tognini 1:18:19
Oh, yeah, I do actually. Okay, just at the Nexus recently because it’s stuck in my mind. Just recently through Tracy’s golf clubs away. And, and happened let that down for a whole year because she asked me to go downstairs in the garage. All the things that we haven’t used for the last five years. So I threw it out.

Chris Baran 1:18:49
And haven’t heard the end of it since. Okay, here’s what this is gonna be tough one. This one’s going to be a tough one for you. Tomorrow, you couldn’t do hair, but you want to do something? What would it be? What would you do?

Benni Tognini 1:19:06
Well, God,

Chris Baran 1:19:09
oh, question why? Why gardening?

Benni Tognini 1:19:14
Because I have just learnt of making time and spending more time with my plants. And, and they’re teaching me. They’re teaching me. They teach me something. And I’m getting all my energy and all my creativity out of them. And all I’m just gonna say just be aware. Whoa, stay tuned. Stay

Chris Baran 1:19:47
tuned. Okay, good. Two more questions. Still two more questions. You know, what if you had one wish for our industry, and you could snap your fingers and it would change? What would that be?

Benni Tognini 1:20:04
Sorry, you just cracked up

Chris Baran 1:20:08
if you had you have I’m gonna give you one wish. I’m gonna give you one wish. Yep. And it’s for our industry and you could snap your fingers and then it would change one wish for industry what would it be? Rented chair Oh, wow, rented chair. Wow. Okay last question. What one thing that people that if people could that are either listening or watching if what should what could should they let go of or stop doing?

Benni Tognini 1:20:53
I think think they should stop listening to themselves. And not stop doing it. Stop listening to themselves.

Chris Baran 1:21:16
And when you say to themselves, do you mean that little voice in your head Norway’s

Benni Tognini 1:21:19
voice? It’s the voice? Yeah, that’s probably about me was the first quit was the first stop doing?

Chris Baran 1:21:32
Yeah, well, yeah, either. What should they what should they let go up or stop doing? You know, so, in that case, I heard you just stop listening. Stop. Stop listening. You’d have a little voice. Okay. That’s awesome. Yeah,

Benni Tognini 1:21:44
thank you, man.

Chris Baran 1:21:45
I just want to say, from the bottom of my heart, you know, it’s like, we connect and it’s like, time stopped from the last time we had a conversation. I just want to thank you so much for being on head cases, because I always say if you’re in our industry, you’ve got to be a bit of a headcase. So Ben, thank you for being you. Thank you for being on the program. And God bless to you and to Tracy and the kids.

Benni Tognini 1:22:11
Thank you. Absolute pleasure. And thank you to all the audience listening. I hope you enjoyed it and taking something literal. So

Chris Baran 1:22:21
Thanks, Ben. Ciao. Take care

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