This week I’m chatting with someone I admire very much as a no-nonsense truth teller who leads with love. She is a published author. She is a world-renowned keynote speaker. She owns three schools and three salons where her mission is not to hire employees but to develop future partners. This mindset makes her a key part of the John Maxwell Team, one of the world’s top leadership training organizations. She led nationwide values-based leadership initiatives for 25,000 leaders with Maxwell at the invitation of the governments of Guatemala and Costa Rica. And she co-hosts the Next Level Salon Podcast. This week’s Headcase is the incredible Tina Black.
5:12 Tina’s journey into the Beauty Industry
8:39 The importance of Partnerships
27:11 Challenges and Solutions in Leadership
39:47 Empowering Team Members
41:07 The role of a leadership coach
Chris Baran 0:00
How great would it be to get up close and personal with the beauty industry heroes we love and admire and to ask them, How did you learn to do what you do? I’m Chris Baran, a hairstylist and educator for 40 plus years, and I’m inviting all our heroes to chat and share the secrets of their success. You Well, welcome to another episode of head cases. Now, just before I tell you who this amazing guest is, but I want to ask you this quick question, have you ever guided some along, someone along who had an issue or a problem, etc, or you’ve helped someone to find the answer to something that was going on, a problem in their life, or whatever. Well, I hate to tell you this, but whether it’s your first day in the salon or you’re the 30 year salon veteran owner, you’re a leader. So that’s the very reason why you should listen up to this podcast. Now, I am so thrilled to chat with today’s guest. As a matter of fact, we had so much fun and created so much content that this is just part one. Now she is a truth teller to the salon world. She has countless hours becoming the leader, mentor, keynote speaker and author that she is today. She’s the co host of next level salon. Podcast, she owns three schools and three salons now, believe me, that takes some leadership skills. She doesn’t hire employees. She makes it her mission to hire future partners. She is a certified DISC personality trainer and consultant and an executive director, certified trainer and coach with the John Maxwell team, yes, I said John Maxwell team, one of the leading author authorities in leadership. She’s conducted nationwide value based transformational leadership initiatives with Maxwell at the invitation of catch this the governments in Guatemala and Costa Rica, where they trained more than 25,000 leaders in all sectors of leadership. And what I love the most about her is she leads everything with her first value love. So let’s get into this week’s head case, Tina. Black. Tina. It is such a pleasure to talk to you again. And I have to say, just from the bottom of my heart, as we’ve caught we’ve talked before, but I have to say it is a pleasure, absolute pleasure, to have you on head cases. Thank
Tina Black 2:36
you, Chris, and the feelings mutual actually, to actually be on the other side, because I’m usually the one interviewing you. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being on our next level podcast as well in the past. So we, we always enjoy it. We always get a lot of giggles. At least I’m giggling pretty much the whole time here speaking. So I’m looking forward.
Chris Baran 2:55
Well, I have to tell everybody watching and listening right now that I had a little bit of I told her my brain fart that happened to me when and she interviewed me. What was it last year? I think it was last year, and and I, and I got the name as podcasters. We always want to say, look at okay. Who could people interview? Who can we have fun with? And a good friend of mine and yours, when gave me the names of two people, one of which was yours, and said, You have to interview these people, because they are unbelievable. And I went awesome. And I went Tina Tina Tina black. And I I went through this whole process of going Tina black. I should know that name. Why don’t? Why is the image? And so for the people that are watching right now, you’ll notice, with all this gray hair, gray beard and gray matter that must be building up around my brain and keeping my neurons from snapping all the time until I saw your face and saw that amazing sign that you have behind that says next level salon leadership. And I went podcast. There it was. So I mean, you intrigued me as a podcaster when we did that interview, just because you’re, oh, you’re so you’ve got such a great flow and the way that you have a great way to bring out the conversation. And I invite everybody to go and listen to your podcast. And next, next salon level leadership, yes, and it was next level, salon management, yes, and leadership. You can see from in here, I invite you guys to go on this amazing podcast. Thank you. So I just want to say from that is as when I dug deep, is when I went that word right behind you that says leadership. I didn’t know that that skill was so predominant in you, and it wasn’t when I talked to win and talked to other people about it, I just went, Oh my god. So I want to talk about that, but I think that for people who don’t know you, and I don’t know how they would not for they don’t know you. That I can you give us just like, a quick hair story of how you’re how you got into the hair business, and how it was that, like, what shifted in you to get you into this leadership level. Oh,
Tina Black 5:12
well, the quick story of it is my husband kind of coerced me into this industry and and he did it. He got me to leave dentistry. And I remember the moment the words he used, he knew the words that he had to use for me. We’re now married almost 40 years, but this was 20 years ago, and he said, Hey, I think I’m gonna buy a cosmetology school, because I think it could be a ministry for you. And so as soon as he said it, I’m like, That’s it. I want a ministry. This is my ministry. So I call it now my ministry business. But little did I know I had very little business sense when I went into this. And thank God partnering with Wynn a few years later after that, and so he taught me so much about business and leadership, as well as John Paul DeJoria. So I was so blessed. And then tried out the salon business for a minute and failed miserably, so bad that I swore I would never get back into it. I was full of a lot of excuses. And then Vivian mackinder inspired me. She was one of our speakers in one of our schools, and she became one of the founding members of the John Maxwell leadership certified team. And so I was very intrigued. Checked into it 2013 became a John Maxwell coach myself, and been like all in I mean, going twice a year really involved with this. Thank God, which opened up the door to me to get back into the beauty salon business. And so now I own several schools, several salons, and then actually thought I better start a coaching company, because I got to help people to not make the same mistakes. So I actually have two coaching companies, so next level, salon leadership, and then I have another one called empowered slime leadership, which is through two other John Maxwell coaches. We teamed up during COVID and just started giving back to the industry. Yeah.
Chris Baran 7:15
First of all, I just in what you just said, there is the chance that happens with people of just meeting of minds, like you said you you teamed up with another John Maxwell, who is, in my mind, one of the most foremost people on talking, on leadership. And you have to remind me later, later to talk, tell you a story about one of my teachers that interviewed, that interviewed John, and one of the powerful things that he said to him, but I I’m just gonna write down that right now. Okay, just so I get it is that you said you partnered up with someone. And I think that there’s so many times when you can see something that there’s a hook or a link. And I’m gonna even just, like, for anybody who’s married or has a partnership, that you connect with somebody immediately and you just say, good, this is, this is the person for me and and tell me a little bit more about that. Like, what was the hook that when you met this person, that you went, Okay, I know that I could, I could coach with this person. I could make it a business and and not hate the person at the end.
Tina Black 8:29
That’s amazing. I actually have fulfilled my entire journey by having partnerships. And I really learned that from the partnership that I have with win clay Baran, John Paul DeJoria. They really taught us the importance of partnerships. And you know, John Maxwell has said this for years. If you want to go fast, go alone, but if you want to go far, go with others. And know that I knew right away, as soon as I joined the John Maxwell team, because they immediately started saying, look for partnerships. And plus, I don’t want to do life alone either. I didn’t want to have like a solopreneur business. I wanted to have something that I could scale, and I knew the only way to do that would be link up with people who have better skill sets than I do. So my next level slot and leadership, I knew right away my COO and now business partner and our salons in school, Sean Chido, I knew right away he had to be my partner, because he didn’t handle a lot of the number side of the salon business. And then I handled the leadership, all the fluff stuff, if you will, in the salon business. So we’re great coaches when together when it comes to coaching salons, and we love doing that. And then our other coaching business, I knew right away. I mean, we connected on a sort of level of we both, we all three, had like, the same value system, and we all knew that we were, like, aligned in those values. And so we said, let’s go ahead and link up. Let’s start sharing our information, and I tell you what, it’s so true. If you’re the smartest in the person in the room, you’re in the wrong room. And when I’m one of these two new look ill day and Christine Zielinski, I’m definitely in the right room, because those two women are so brilliant. I learned so much from them. And so every time we’re together and teaching at hair shows or doing masterminds. I’m taking more notes, right? Every night, every time they open their mouth, Yeah, amazing. I
Chris Baran 10:29
remember one of the VPS at the company that I work for, and still do they. I remember and you, I know you know Sam V and know you’ve interviewed him, I know that he’s everybody loves Sam, and Sam and I are really super good friends and and we also, because we both teach design, we both work for the same manufacturer, and when we were coming up with our systems, and here we would butt heads on stuff. And so I remember going to this VP, and we were naturally sitting at a bar at, God, I’m trying to remember. And I was going to try and give a plug to the name of the bar, and I can’t remember anymore New York gray matter. And I remember we had this conversation with her over a pint and and we said, listen, we’re look at we know that this is the right way to go, but we don’t always agree. And what, like, what would you tell well, like, here’s what the things we’re doing about. And first thing that she said to us was, listen, if you guys would agree on everything, one of you is not necessary. Yeah. And so that’s the whole point. And that was, I think, for both of us, one of the key moments in our development, etc, yeah. And God, and is there another key player in our life? Was, was just right here, my son, Lee, who is producing this whole thing, he went, Frankie and Johnny’s, and I went, Yes. So it was at Frankie and Johnny’s in New York, and Edward pint, and we were and we had that conversation. So excuse me, so I love that, and I love how you partner with people. And I think for people listening, what would you know like you’re saying? Okay, this your your adventure might sound so much bigger, not that it’s better, not as greater, but bigger, because you’ve got schools and you have salons and you have coaching business and so on. But what would you say to that? How would you choose to have somebody have partners? And I, because I think in our business, that’s the hardest thing for people to do. I see so many salons where they got the one person is the owner, and they don’t have a partner, and they’re they’re constantly struggling, and they’re doing everything, and the expense that they have is that their family and their business and so on, because they’re trying to do everything. Yeah. Number one, I’m going to give you a two parter here. Number one, should they have a business partner? And number two, what do you do to make sure that that that partnership lasts and you don’t end up hating one another?
Tina Black 12:49
Ah, you know, I’m actually coaching a salon partnership which are in the realm of that of the potentially hating one another. And I’m so glad that they hired me, because now I can be kind of like that mediator to help them understand each other’s personality styles, because they’re two total different personality styles, which is good. Yes, you want that. Yeah, big time. And so me helping them understand one another and how to communicate better with that personality style. So I learned that as a disc, D, I S, C, personality coach and emotional intelligence coach as well, and And so helping them, you know, through that process. But people, when they usually hire me to coach them, Chris, it’s it is to help them to develop partnerships, because that’s what I’ve done. They’ve watched me over the years. Tina, how you’ve done this? My first partner, of course, was when and John Paul, and then my daughter was six years old when we first got into the business. She became my second partner. Years later, at 18 years old, by the way, we partnered in a salon together. And so it’s just pretty amazing how we’ve been able to, you know, really grow this thing. And then we started. And you know, when said something so big to us many, many years ago, he said, I want to work with who I want to work with, and I don’t want to work with who I don’t want to work with. It has to be someone I want to work with, right? And so, in fact, he even said it would be someone that you would want to invite on a vacation with you. And so as we’ve carefully selected people to be a part of our salon businesses, we’ve also said, Okay, we don’t hire just future employees. We hire future partners. So I’m looking at people that I would want to go on vacation with and spend time with. And so literally, that’s what we’ve done. And so now we have four salon partners, and I can tell you, Chris, there’s no way my daughter and I could own four or more salons if we didn’t have partners. And so, and I’m so glad we do, because we’re we’re thinking so much bigger and have so much more capability because of the scaling that we’re doing. Buying and our businesses. And so I believe, really, I really, honestly believe you cannot do that. You should not do you can do business alone, but you shouldn’t. Yeah, life’s too short. Like, let’s have a little fun.
Chris Baran 15:15
No, it’s true. Yeah. And so if that person, that person is listening to us right now, whether they’re looking at going into business on their own, or whether they’re already in a commission business, and they’re looking at all the work that they have to do it. Do do you suggest? I’ve heard people say that, if you’re I’m going to take you back. And I love to use this word, because it’s so stupid, I’m going to hearken back to something that was said to me. And this was said to me by a great person that I really admired. I’m still doing, like 100 years ago when I had my salons and in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, we always said, If you can’t spell Saskatchewan, then you’re not from it. But you know, his name was Kent Gould, and he was, he part of the distribution company. And I asked him, What about, about his partners? Because he they started doing from province to province. You know, for anybody else that states in Canada is that we, he started going province to province and opening up more distribution companies, and it was very intrigued in that. And I asked him one day, I said, Kent. I called him that because that’s what his name was. And I said, Kent, what is it that you how do you make sure that you have a partner that you can trust and you can do especially when you’re not around all the time? And he said, Well, we put together partnership agreements, and in that partnership, and pardon me if I’m going to say, I’ll try to calm it down from what he said. But he said, Well, I said, Well, how does that help you? He said, Well, he says, when we have our initial meeting, we put a partnership together, and we talk about everything. Is like even he said, this is, I’m going to try to calm this one down, even when, if we, one of us has to go and have a poop, when, and how is that going to happen? And I said, Well, that’s amazing. I said, Why do you do all that? He says, because those are all the problems that could come up. Not poop, I’m sure. But when he got so detailed in it that you covered everything so that you know and trust everybody in it first of all. So my questions to you this are, do you believe in partnership agreements? Is that something that worked in their case, but you wouldn’t recommend, or you do or and give us a little bit behind that?
Tina Black 17:35
Yeah, I actually learned that partnership agreement idea from Wynn and John Paul, because they did that with us, and we are a franchise in our Paul Mitchell schools, in our salons, we were like, oh, let’s not start a franchise until possibly we could start it after 10 salons. But right now, we’re just doing partnerships. And so yes, we have a partnership agreement. My husband and I are majority owners, and so when we bring on our partners, everything spelled out. In fact, it’s 10 years in now in the salon business, and just this year, we changed up our partnership agreements. And we always say, you know, our systems are a list of all of our screw ups. And we realized, you know, what that way of doing things didn’t it worked, okay, but in order to grow over the next 10 years, we need to shift to this. And so we actually brought on our lawyer to have those conversations with our partners, because we know that that can be a real touchy situation, of course, and friendship. And so we wanted them to be able to feel safe. And my ultimate goal, Chris, is that my partner feels like they’re getting the better end of the deal. That’s just how I do business and and if they didn’t feel like they were getting the better of end of the deal, then we go back to the drawing board and make sure. And I told my lawyer, I said, you make sure that they feel like they’re getting the better end of the deal. Because I want, I want to serve them, yeah? I know in order for us to grow, it has to be me serving them, and not the other way around,
Chris Baran 19:08
yeah. And I, you know, and I can’t remember the, I only remember the gentleman’s first name. It was part of the, I think it was part of the, the Secret Service or something, and he ended up being a head negotiator, Chris, that’s why I remembered his name. But I don’t remember the last name now, but he wrote a book, and it was just all based on negotiation, and he and he said that everybody’s got to win. If so, if you just go in and there’s no leeway where somebody can win something, right? It’s really bad deal. So I love what you said, that that you want them to feel like they’re getting the better end of the deal. It doesn’t mean that you’re hurting because of it, because of it, right? Not always allow somebody to get something out of the negotiation. And I love that part that you were saying in there, and I love that you talk about partnership agreements, because that’s something we really believe in as well. L is that you’re not willing to put that stuff down, if you’re not willing to get the partnership agreement down, then it just doesn’t work. Because somebody, if you don’t have it written down, somebody’s going to end up misinterpreting, well, they can just say, well, that’s not the way I understood it. And I can remember, you met my son, Lee, and our and our team that we have. We were going to start with a friend of ours out of Italy, and we were going to start a software company together and and all of a sudden we just, I remember, they said, Listen, we might not have the funding that we could put in for this right now. And we said, listen, well, then don’t worry about it. We’ll put in, we’ll put in the remainder of the money and and you can just pay us back when, when you’ve got the funds. It went south from there and dramatically south, because this person was a friend of mine as well, and they they were, they were saying, they were accusing us of trying to scam them. And it wasn’t until we had a meeting with with my coach and and Jason Everett just said, Look at you’ve got to find out. You’ve got to define what they mean in both of those, both of your agreements. So when we said 50% what does that mean? When you say that you’re paying for it, what does that mean? So we went back in and we we, first of all, set the stage for look at we know that we’re that we’re all on the same path, but we’re there’s a thing that we have to do. We got a wrinkle in here somewhere, so we need to define what all of this is. So as soon as we defined it, we said, well, what’s your definition of this? We said, we’re upset, because if you put in more money, when with Italian law, that means that you retain more, that you get more shares, right? And and we said, look at this is an this is a US company. And doesn’t matter how much money each party puts in, it’s in the agreement. What you say is 5050, and they went, oh, so it was all over, the lack of a definition, and that’s why I think that these are so critical, that if you have an agreement, it’s got to be, you have to define what each one of this and why. Sometimes I hate the legalese that I can’t understand in there. But if that spells it out, and you speak with your lawyers, as you should, then that was sets you up for success. And it’s not doing that. And I, and I know you do something simple, and we call it a different name. And we just had one of these with our team this and we set up a brand new code of honor with our business team, which, yeah, and I’m sure I know you guys have it, you know, I know you do it, because I’ve heard you talk on it, but I think you call it a little different name. But if you have to have your and you said it earlier, your values, you have to establish that your values are the same. And then, if you can, you can set up with your code of how you’re going to interact with honor and solve the problems that you’re going to have ahead of time. What like when you do these what? What do you find in helping to set up their values and help the people with setting up a proper code so you can get along. How’s that work? When you do it? Yeah,
Tina Black 23:05
that’s so good. I love that. And you know, for me, it’s obviously not necessarily all written on paper, right? It’s a gut feeling, too. And I remember when Wynn said, and it stuck with me forever, is, obey your instincts. And I remember the exact instance that he said it, and I remember writing it down on a piece of paper. And the minute that I don’t obey my instincts is the minute that later years, I’ll be like, You know what? I knew the red flags were up when I actually brought them on as a partner or even a team member or a staff member, but I was desperate in the moment, and I went forward, and I’m like, Oh my gosh, yes. Like, when was that moment in time, right? And I can tell you this that so I have set value system in our company. It’s love, impact, generosity, humility, teamwork and self aware. And that really got downloaded to me one night. I’ll never forget it, even the definitions. And so we actually spell it out with our teams. And so as we grow with some of our stylists, and we see which ones actually really have those values, I mean, really have those values. And I’ll tell you, the number one is love. And for me, if you don’t believe in people and love people, because Chris, we know there’s salon owners out there and Salon leaders that really don’t love people and don’t people, and if they don’t, they’re not going to work as my partner. They work as my partner, because I know they’re not going to love themselves. They’re not going to love me, they’re not going to love anybody. And you know what? It just isn’t going to work in our company.
Chris Baran 24:49
I bet we have something in common. I have this love hate relationship. I hate paying for something that I’m not using. I hate working in a small, cramped box. Yet, I love working in a cool salon that impresses my clients, and I love the culture and synergy of a team while enjoying the freedom of being my own boss. You too. What if all that was available to you at the salon you rent from, meet artist on, go a game changing way to rent salon space with artist on go, you only pay for the time you’re behind the chair. You can choose a salon that fits your vibe, location and amenities. With artist on go, you’re a part of a stylist community, not hustling alone. Plus, you get to enjoy perks like clean towels and back bar supplies. Check out artist on go built for stylists serious about their clients and growing their brand without the hassles of managing a space. Here’s the kicker, you can save more than 50% on your rent to find out more, go to B, I T, dot L y slash, artist on go, C, B, that’s B, I T, dot L y slash, artist on go, C, B, you know, and I hit, it’s like, I tell you what. It’s like. You’re for those people watching, listening. I have all I always tell the people that I’m interviewing, I don’t give them the questions, because I think then it’s a pat answer, and I have all these questions, and I swear you’re looking over my shoulder and reading the next question that I’m about to ask. So first of all, thank you so much for the segue. But is I mean, I know when you and I travel the world and talk to people salons everywhere, and you see their culture. You see what’s going on in their business. And when I look back to to when I first started my business, I went, I, you know, I like, was I an influence? I wasn’t influencer, because I’m talking back in the end, up into the 70s here. I started when I was three, but I was an influence on them, and they wanted to work for me because I was an influence on them. But I’ll tell you, I sure as hell wasn’t a leader. Yeah, I wasn’t a leader at that time because I didn’t think I had no experience, didn’t know what it was. I just wanted to hang my shingle up in front of the door, and it was my business and my name out there, and and you start to get an ego, etc, and I think that affected your effectiveness as a leader when you think that way. So but I want to You see, and you talk more on this, on leadership, and see what I do than I do, and what’s your take on today’s salon owner leadership and how they lead their team. It’s just tell me what you see, what’s out there, you know? And if that has wrinkles and dimples on it, then let’s talk about that. Yeah,
Tina Black 27:49
a lot of wrinkles, for sure. And you know, it’s interesting before I answer that question, I just thought of something because my daughter was doing a hiring event in our salon a few weeks ago, and one of the clients walked in a little early, and we had, you know, this, all these stylists, future stylists, in our salon, maybe, like 10 of them. And so she walks in, she’s like, Hey, what’s going on here? And and we’re like, yeah, we’re just doing a hiring event. And she immediately, she has this little dog, this client, and she’s like, Oh my gosh, you have to work with this company. They live to all their values. You see their values right here on the wall. Love, impact, gender like, literally, I have chills, and I just Oh my gosh. It was as if we prepared this woman. And you know, bottom line is, this is, if you want to know what your culture is, ask your clients, right? We started to build our culture because you have a culture you just don’t really, you know, know what it is. But ask your clients. They’ll tell you, like, really, really, listen to them. I promised that in the beginning of this question, because it’s critical that you live and breathe your culture and understand what it is, and it’s okay if it shifted. And so what’s happened on these salons that we’ve coached Chris over the years? They want to grow, they want to scale, but they don’t have anything in writing of their culture that they could hold people accountable to or to hire, that’s part of the challenge. And so they’ve hired all the wrong people and because they didn’t know what their values are. So now, like, okay, that’s okay. Let’s just backtrack a little bit. Let’s start putting it in writing. Like, what? And so asking them really deep questions, kind of what we’re doing right now, asking those deep presses, what do you really want? Yeah. So working through that process, and it is a process. It doesn’t happen overnight. And so working through that, okay, so now let’s draw out your ideal team player. Who do you really, really want? What’s your number one value that you you know it has to be a non they have to be non negotiables, yeah. Yeah. But. Are you going to allow into your space? Because it really is. It’s it’s that allowance. And so I think that’s the challenge that I’m seeing and not knowing how to hold people accountable, because they don’t know how to have those hard conversations, right? Because their personality style more so than any press most of them are people pleasers. They don’t want to offend. But really it’s like me, I didn’t know. I didn’t have the dialog, I didn’t have the verbiage. I didn’t know how to approach someone in love and hold them accountable to things, right? So I was that authoritative leader of like, it’s my way or the highway. You know, if you don’t like it, hit the door. So guess what they did? They hit the door. I had a full walk out. Yeah, that was Hi.
Chris Baran 30:48
My name is Chris. My name is Chris, and I know exactly what you’re talking about. Yes, you
Tina Black 30:54
know, it was really my insecurity, because only learn how to be a secure leader. Chris, and it’s taken a lot,
Chris Baran 31:14
you know, I think that if we could, you know, I would say, if I could snap my fingers and give our industry, one thing to me it would be, is to give have people that, whether you’re just looking at starting a business, or whether you’re, you’re even business for a long time, or just to understand that you’re, you’re the leader, you’re not supposed to be the best one. Yeah, you’re not. You’re not supposed to be the shining star like me. It was Chris Baran above the that wasn’t the name of the salon, but let’s just say it was Chris Baran on the shingle above the door, which meant, at that time, from an eagle base that look at my salon. It’s my business. It’s the way I run things, and it’s the way people are coming to see me, you know, and and by the time that and I had salon walkouts as well, and when I, when I went to sell it at the end, because of a move, I had nothing to really sell, because it was, it wasn’t worth it, because it was all built on me and I was leaving, rather than built on the value of the business and what the salon contributes, and the business model that it is so, you know, and I see that, I see myself, the reflection of myself in these owners, when that’s the doing the same thing that I did, yeah,
Tina Black 32:31
yeah. I’m always attracting the people that I used to be, yeah. Well,
Chris Baran 32:36
yeah, because, because you, because you fixed it, yes,
Tina Black 32:40
because I fixed it exactly. It’s called, that, really is. It’s called the law of the lids. John Maxwell calls it that. People are attracted to you, right? But tell
Chris Baran 32:50
them about what the law of the lid. To give them a little bit about that, because it’s brilliant, and I love this. Yeah,
Tina Black 32:56
it’s, it’s your capacity to lead. Because the people like, if you’re, let’s say, on a scale of one to 10 you kind of grade yourself, so to speak, of your leadership capability. So if you’re a six or a seven, you’re only going to attract fours or fives, yes. And so because no one that’s a better leader than you is going to work for you, right? They’re going to work for someone else that’s a better leader. And so sometimes I am so saddened, Chris, when people leave me, but then if I really look in the mirror and I think, oh, it’s because they’re a way better leader than I am, they out. They outgrew me. And so I need to let them go, but also realize what I call the law of the mirror, of looking in the mirror. Okay, what do you need to grow? I need to grow myself. Like the hardest person to grow is you right? The highest form of leadership is leading ourselves. So going back to the drawing board and just really honing in and saying, Okay, what do I need to work on character, maybe charisma, maybe more of my responsibility, my follow through, all the little character traits that we don’t want to look at, to really grow ourselves. And that’s really all you have to do. You can hit the easy button, but it’s the hard button too, at the same it’s tough stuff, like you don’t rent, you know, oh,
Chris Baran 34:10
I mean, I don’t think, I think that any salon owner, any person that’s been a part of a walkout knows when that happens. You just want to go home that night and curl up in your bed and get your wubby around you, put your thumb in your mouth and, you know, go into fetal position, you know. And I just think, because that’s what happens. But the reality is, it’s happened to me, but when you can walk away, if you can have the courage to look at yourself or look at what went wrong, or what did I just? Did I just respond in anger to something, and, quite frankly, just piss people off, yeah? And it was me, not them, you know. And if you can have the courage to do that, that’s where the growth happens. It hurts, but you’re better, and sometimes the business is even better after that. Yeah. It
Tina Black 35:00
is, yeah, because you have to, like, really look within, you know? And so that’s, I would say, that’s the hardest part. And I do want to backtrack just for a second, because one of the things I’ve noticed over the years Chris is the philosophy of grow or go. So my partners, what I really look for is a growth mentality like, have they been growing within the salon over the years? And if they’re not, then I really can’t make them my partner. And are they invested in their own growth? Are they reading books? Are they listening to podcasts? Are they bringing things to me to lead me as a leader? You were so right when you were saying you don’t want a bunch of, yes, people around you. You’ve got to have people around you that are going to challenge you to those are the ones I want to bring as a partner. But of course, at the same time, I want to make sure that they’re not a jerk either. Yeah.
Chris Baran 35:54
No, I I love it, and I love what I think I was telling you about, what one of my other coaches, Blair singer, I’m sure you know of Blair, part of the Rich Dad, Poor Dad group, and he was into, I’ve tell you this great story about John Maxwell and John. He had John on this conversation that he they were talking about and, and, and Blair, you know, if you, if you’ve ever been exposed to him, Blair is one of the most profound teachers that I’ve ever met in my life. I mean, if you have, he has a way of understanding exactly what you need. And then he has, he has the hook, or the the solution, or the vehicle that you can get on in order to get to the solution. And he and Blair, I think, exposed just a little bit of a weakness that he had. And he said to John, and if Blair is listening, which I’m sure he’s going out of way, out of his way to listen to my podcast. However, what I love that when he related this story to us, he just said, he told John. He said, Look at what do I do? Because I’m feel like I’m giving everybody away my information, and if I give it all away, that they won’t, they won’t need me anymore. And, and, yeah, apparently John said to him, Listen, your job is not to be the smartest person, the best person, but your job is to create more leaders and leaders that are better than you are. Yeah, and I just, and I just thought that, you know, if you know, I’m gonna flip it, because, you know, I Blair was the person that changed my mindset and got me to think about things differently in life, and got me to start to think about maybe being a better entrepreneur, a better person, and so on. But just the fact that you thought about how his influence on me made me the better leader made me I’m not perfect. I’m not perfect anyway, by way, anyway, shape or form, but he made me better at it, and that’s exactly what John was talking about, and maybe that’s why it resonated with me so much.
Tina Black 38:06
Yeah, you know, I think I don’t know what year it was, but it was really impressed upon me to train not only myself but my team how to build a bench, because I knew if they started to build a bench, that they were a secure leader, if they were trying to hold on to their position, and really kind of like putting a stake in the ground, like, this is my turf. I knew that they couldn’t be growing with my company. Yeah. So it was grow or go at that point, and to really think about, okay, this is how you empower people. This is how you equip, equip people. Because the kind of the verbiage that I hear Chris from people is like, I don’t know how to delegate. And really, what it means is, no, you don’t know how to empower, because, first and foremost, you don’t believe in people. So let’s really go back to the root of that and start believing in people and really set them up for success. And we call that the equipment process. And what does that look like? Right? You do it, or, excuse me, I do it. You do I do and you watch me, you do it, and I watch you now you do it. So going through that whole process is really the proper delegation, so to speak, it’s that empowerment, and I think it’s just education, teaching people how to really empower people, but also how more So, Chris, this is my challenge. This is what I see with leaders, is they just don’t believe in people, because, I think down to they maybe don’t believe in themselves deep down, yeah, yeah,
Chris Baran 39:39
you know. And I love that that’s even in that last step that you did where you go out and do it, and the trick is, I leave you alone, yeah? And because I don’t make or manage you, I let you make a mistake, yes, because that’s the biggest thing. Yeah. Like, I’ve seen so many leaders that they they give somebody instruction to. But then all they do is they just, they just micromanage it to get it to perfect, rather than letting that person make the mistake, coaching them through it. And then it’s better the next time and better the next time. Because if you micromanage everybody, then all you’re doing is you’re just saying, Okay, well, you can do it, but then I’ll fix it later, so I don’t have to work as hard as I need to
Tina Black 40:23
powerful handing it off to them, but not really equipping them properly. And so that’s the challenge, you know. It’s even as simple as, you know. Let’s talk about shampooing. Okay, that’s a good example, but it’s like, really, you have to give them a shampoo every once in a while and show them how it really should feel. Because the reason why it’s substandard now is because there’s no accountability. There’s no proper inspection, that you just abdicated the shampoo, and now they’re they shampoo crappy, you know? Yeah,
Chris Baran 40:53
yeah, yeah. And what you permit your Promote, right? So it’s let that happen. There it goes. And I wanted to bring to, you know, you know, I’m pissed off right now, and, you know, I’m pissed off because we’re just about done our time here, and
Tina Black 41:10
I could hang out with you for days. Well, you know, I promise
Chris Baran 41:13
you, I want to have part two on this. Can we agree on this? And I’ve got to about three questions that I have on here, and I’m glad to all the rest of the stuff that I want to get into. So can we have an agreement right now? I want to, I want to have you back as soon as I can. And I want to do this one more time so I can continue. Part two is that, is that good?
Tina Black 41:32
Thanks, Chris and I want to agree to being back on our podcast. I
Chris Baran 41:36
will, I swear to God, I’ll be there for you. But I want to, I want to end up with this one right here is, do you have to be a perfect leader to be a leadership coach?
Tina Black 41:52
So if you’re talking about a leadership coach in a business, or even just a leadership coach that I am, no you have to be a growing leader, period. And so are you investing in yourself? I actually have put together for my team, for myself, for everyone that I work with, Chris, I have had them I’m working with everyone I coach. I even coach a lot of nonprofits, by the way. And so what I do is I have them put together a yearly intentional growth plan. It’s pulling teeth to get people to actually do it. Yeah, we take and I take my DISC assessment, my emotional intelligence assessment, and I’ll sit down with it for the year and say, Okay, these are my three strengths. These are my three blind spots that I want to work on in 2025 this is what I need to do to grow past those. It’s hard to get people to do that, but if they’re doing that, you’ll you’ll notice, and it’s so crazy, because everyone that I coach, I’m always like, Oh, I’m going through that right now. And they love that, because the transparency and the rawness is real, and I think that’s why people like me as a coach, because I’m in the trenches with them. And I’ll say, You know what, I kind of screwed up there? And I’ll say, when you figure it out, let me know, because I don’t know the answer. And I think they really enjoy that transparency too. So I don’t have, like, a pad answer all the time too for them,
Chris Baran 43:17
100% and I, and maybe I just was doing that from a selfish reason, because, you know, I call myself a coach too. I always go by Coach Chris Baran, but the reality is, I’m not the perfect coach, no, but I do know I’ve had, you know, I know I know the things that you should do. I don’t always do them, and I’m growing, as you said, as I do them, I’m getting better at them. But you know, I remember, I was talking to someone the other day and and I was talking about that, and they said, you you know that this is a little factoid that’s always stuck with me, fountain of useless information. But Muhammad Ali, who was, you know, supposedly the greatest boxer of all time, his coach was Angelo Dundee. Angelo Dundee never set foot in the ring as a boxer, right? He wasn’t the perfect boxer, right? But he knew how to coach perfect boxers, or, you know, and again, that word perfect, I think, is such a blown out word in our industry, yeah, right, because that’s my problem. Is, I’m a, I was, I’m working on recovering. I’m a recovering perfectionist. We always talk about disabling stories, and my disabling story was, I’m a perfectionist, and it costs me time, energy, money, but the reality is, so I had to create new stories. And out of that, I mean, I got it from that I don’t have to be an Angelo Dundee, I don’t have to be a perfect boxer. I just have to be a good coach at what I know how to coach on and go from there. So
Tina Black 44:44
yeah, and there’s a difference between coaching and consulting too, yeah, because, you know, of course, as coaches, sometimes we’ll drop into, okay, I’m consulting right now. I’m just going to share with you what we’re doing. But then, you know, really, and that’s why I’ve invested so much money in becoming the coach that. I am now of really going through a certification after certification, and it’s really the art of being curious, the art of asking questions, the art of listening, and it that makes you a better leader. At the same time, the more you invest in becoming a better coach. So when I coach teams, Chris, it’s usually how to be a better coach.
Chris Baran 45:19
Yeah, that’s exactly it. Yeah. I would be remiss if I, as I said, I want you back on here as fast as I can so I can continue this conversation. But I want to, I want to just leave you with this is that somebody wants to get you as a coach. They want to get a hold of you, and if they can’t, if they’re not listening, they can’t read right above your, your left shoulder there, what it says, Next Level salon leadership. But how do they get a hold of
Tina Black 45:50
you? Yeah, super simple. Just go to my website. It’s Tina black.net, all my informations on that website, and they can get a hold of me anytime.
Chris Baran 46:01
Beautiful, yeah. Tina, I just want to say thank you. I don’t know who had more fun. I think I had more fun if we had a my scale is like this. I’m my scale of my fun. My fun scale is like way over here. So I just want to thank you for your your your intelligence, your zest for life, and then the knowledge that you have that you impart all the time. So I just want to say thank you. Thank
Tina Black 46:27
you, Chris. Feelings mutual. We love interviewing you. I love watching you on social media and all the things that you’re doing and more. So just how you’re giving back to the industry, this is so imperative. More people need to do what we’re doing really right? Exactly.
Chris Baran 46:43
You can tell my you can tell the arrow I came from, when you know it’s me and the old folks home going bingo. You know it’s
Tina Black 46:52
bingo, bingo.
Chris Baran 46:54
Well, I think this was a bingo for me and I, and I agree with your husband, this has been a ministry for you, and thank you for bringing that ministry to us. Yeah, thank
Tina Black 47:04
you, Chris. All the best.
Chris Baran 47:08
Thanks again for watching this episode, and if you liked what you heard, remember to smash that like or follow button, depending on your preferred platform, and make sure to share it with anyone you know that might be a fellow head case. Head cases is produced by cut action media, with Marjorie Phillips doing the planning parts, Lee Baran on the video bits, and Adrian Taverner mixing the audio jazz you.
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