This is the second time we’ve had the pleasure of welcoming this incredible guest to Headcases, and for good reason. We started with a powerful conversation about the role of questioning in the salon, as owners, as educators, and as leaders, and it became something much deeper. His perspective as a corporate executive coach carries so much insight I knew I had to bring him back and share even more of that wisdom with you.
Jay Williams is an executive coach who’s worked with Fortune 500 companies. He’s also a dynamic, funny, and thought-provoking speaker. He’s the author of This vs That: Better Thinking, Better Choices, Better Leaders and Leave Your Mark: The Thinking, Skills, and Behaviors of Influencers. Every conversation with him gives me fresh perspective, and I know you’ll feel it too. So get comfortable, take it all in, and welcome back Jay Williams.
- 11:31 • The art of asking questions effectively
- 49:55 • Handling emotions and leading with respect
- 51:40 • The role of leadership in different contexts
- 1:00:00 • Defining and embodying core values
- 1:15:00 • Building a culture of accountability and respect
- 1:18:00 • Reciprocity and open communication
- 1:24:00 • Appreciation and final thoughts
Complete Transcript
Chris Baran 0:00
How great would it be to get up close and personal with the beauty industry heroes we love and admire, and to ask them, How did you learn to do what you do? I’m Chris Baran, a hair stylist and educator for 40 plus years, and I’m inviting all our heroes to chat and share the secrets of their success. Hi, well, my friends, welcome to another episode of head cases. And I have to be really honest with you here, this is the second time we’ve had this gentleman on, and it all stemmed from us having this amazing conversation about questioning and how questioning relates to what we do all the time as a in the salon, as owners, as educators, etc, and getting his perspective from a corporate executive coach was really it was really enlightening. And I wanted to have that, be able to have that and share that with you, but just so he got a little bit of background. Yes, he is an executive coach. He’s taught with Fortune 500 countries. He’s he’s an amazing, funny, funny speaker. Got a great sense of humor and wit, and I always love talking to him. And I have to say this, not only is a good speaker, but he’s written. He’s the author of this versus that, better thinking, better choices, better leaders, and leave your mark the thinking and skills and behaviors of influencers. And so I just want to say that I’m really excited about having him on one more time. I’m always excited about the message that he has to give, and I highly suggest listen to this all the way through, and I want you to help us give just a great welcome. And here he is, one more time. Jay Williams, well, Mr. Jay Williams, I was going to do something clever by looking Mr. Jay Williams, it’s a second time here that we have Jay Williams, redux, the second version. We have very few people that we have on twice and and you’re one of the few repeat offenders that we have. So how’s that for an intro? Is that does that?
Jay Williams 2:16
Well, I always appreciate a second chance. Thank you. I wish other people in life gave me what’s it called a mulligan. I wish I had that. That’d be great. Thank you for that
Chris Baran 2:27
It’s, it’s on, and I have to tell for the people watching and listening that we, we bumped into each other at premiere and and I think, first of all, it was really interesting, because we’re, we’re kind of lining up at a booth, and you had your back to me. I don’t think you knew I was there, and I wasn’t quite certain it was you, but I when you turned around, we went, OMG. And then, you know, we started, we started chatting just, I can’t remember what it was about, but education as a whole, or what we were doing. I don’t remember what sparked it, but I remember that that it came around to questioning. We were talking about questions and and I want to set this up right for so I don’t want people to take offense by this, but I’m just going to say that it seems, in our society, and I don’t know if it’s new, old or whatever, but it seems that a society in a whole has more of a tell than ask mentality. What’s your take on what’s How do you feel about that?
Jay Williams 3:29
Well, first I want to say the booth was the kissing booth. Yes,
Chris Baran 3:34
yes, there are hundreds of booths.
Jay Williams 3:39
So if you guys are wondering which booth is a kissing booth? I think that it’s human nature that we operate from our own perspective, and so it comes very naturally to talk about what we know, which would be ourselves. Yeah, and I we were chatting, and I remember your son was there, and you were talking about this event that you’re doing in the fall. And when I asked what the topic was, I kind of it was kind of tongue in cheek. And I just thought, Okay, another workshop on what? And just fill in the blank. And then you said, it’s really around asking questions. And when you talk about this perspective today of telling if you looked at what would be the really polar opposite to that, it’s asking. And you and I were chatting, and I was sharing that I’m writing something called MIQ versus MIS. The MIQ is the most important question, what you’re going to ask, and the MIS is the most important statement, what you’re going to say. And as you and I began going back. Back and forth, and, you know, I even heard in what you’re saying that you’re going to share with the group and where you’re going to guide them to. I think this is the biggest opportunity from not only a societal standpoint. I mean, we’re not going to talk about politics, but you could talk about politics, religions, things like that. What if we started the conversations off with a question? Yeah, yeah. Well, look at the consultation. Right? For those who are listening, who are stylists, you just that you see the universal applicability. What if your consultation start off with what you’re going to ask versus what you’re going to say? What if you’re a leader and you’re doing one on ones, yeah, and it starts off with in your preparation, is, what’s the most important question I can ask?
Chris Baran 5:50
Yeah, love that. And you know, because I think that’s a of that, I didn’t come up with this line that somebody else said it, but it was, it was the person that, the person that asks the questions, controls the conversation, you know, and I have to be, I’m gonna be really very candid, because you’re making me sound like, like, I’m I really know what I’m talking about, and I do on some but the reality, I
Jay Williams 6:15
apologize for raising the bar for the audience. I apologize right up front. I’m sorry if I raise the bar.
Chris Baran 6:22
I like, I like to take on that imposter syndrome, because I said it right out there. I don’t know anything, so you don’t have to worry about me getting heavy on you. But the idea was, is, I always think, and I think that what I love about our conversations, that you and I have, is that they it comes really from, like everything for me now is about education and how you get your message across, and so on. And I know that from you, it’s all it’s leadership, and you’ve got this amazing background on executive leadership and and yet you you’ve turned it back in where you’ve also applying and bringing the beauty industry to it as well. I’m going to give you a quick statement then I want to just to let people know that didn’t watch or haven’t been able to have the opportunity to watch the first one that you did, is to know a little bit about your background. But I want to set that up with just a simple statement that is, people tend to teach or lead the way that they were taught or LED. And I think that that’s a new concept that people have to jump into. So I want to jump into that. But how did your leadership skills, your ability to really connect with people? How did, how did it transfer? And how did it get it started in our business? First,
Jay Williams 7:46
I want to answer concisely how it started in the industry. Was my wife was a headhunter, a recruiter, and she was recruiting for Bumble and Bumble prior to Estee Lauder buying them, and she said, you know, this industry is really wired for your work. You know, when you talk about emotional intelligence, you talk about empathy, they’re really wired for your messaging. And so to answer your question directly, it’s been 23 years now, that’s how I got into the industry, and to jump ahead a little bit, because some people say, Well, how would you have a familiarity? I found that humanity is scalable. And what a salon owner and a stylist, aesthetician, new talent, front desk, what they experience is what humanity experiences, regardless what they do for a profession. So that was connecting, that those two dots, the leadership portion of it, I felt, was too complex. And so when I broke it down, it really it’s irreducible essence. It’s about communication and influence. And if you just looked at communication, great leaders are great communicators, yeah. And at the risk of anyone’s preconceived ideas, I’m not going to list any leaders, unless you want to start now, we could that would be, yeah, that’d be a fun way to go. I think if you look at them, what you’ve seen is that there’s some level of communication that they have, and the most effective communicators communicate from the other person’s perspective, yeah, the only way that you can do it is by the coursework that you’re going to be offering in the fall, which is by asking questions and human nature. We communicate from our own perspective, because it’s the only information and data that we have readily available. We just have to realize that if, if we’re going to influence people, we’re going to communicate. Kate in a way that they’re receptive to it. We have to include their perspective. And the best way to do it is to simply ask questions. And I ask questions really well. It’s one reason, but three components. One, I want to know what you know. I want to know what you think, and I want to know what you feel before I respond. And you said, you know about teachers? I think historically, I think that profession has evolved to a different level. Now that people are neurodiverse or neurodivergent, that they’re they are used to telling but for people, let’s just stick to our industry who are educators. And when I’ve worked with educators and coached groups of them, it’s okay, and I think you know from your experience, it’s probably something you do. You can start off with the question, tell me what you know about color. Tell me what you know about extensions. Tell me what you know about the consultation. Because again, I’m going to lead you. I may not have official title, title. I’m just leading the class. I just want to know what you know, what you think of, what you feel, so if there’s any adjustment to your thinking, I first understand it,
Chris Baran 11:23
yeah, you know. And I, I think you know what, I’m gonna apologize to people that are watching listening simply by such
Jay Williams 11:31
your first wife and your son. The confessional, Chris,
Chris Baran 11:38
Bless me, Father, exactly. But what I love that you said is, and the reason why I wanted to apologize, because I love doing these podcasts, because it’s great to get the information out, but I always learn, and, you know, and I think that if everybody takes that on, just to be a learner, is that you get something out of everything. And, you know, and it’s the way I want to put this of how things fit together, and I just had a great epiphany. And I kind of equate when you understand something to like when you’re taking a car ride to somewhere. You know, I know that I have to go two blocks. I turn to the right. I go two more blocks. I turn to the left, but if the road’s closed, then I have to start off going to the right, but it’s not then you, all of a sudden, you, oh, there’s that landmark I saw before. And now, from its totality, you kind of fit it all together. It kind of fits, rather than just knowing one thing and and I really feel that questioning is something that that over the last I’m going to guess whatever X number of years that I’ve really helped to try to learn into to teach, not only and use, but the way that you and I have that thinking process going on as I love, what’s the most important question, what’s the most important statement? And the Q and the s, the question and the statements, the biggest thing that we teach people is what I always believe that learning should be fun, and we, we always do these games, and the games would be nothing, nothing to do with hair, because you just gotta learn how to do questions first. And if you, if you do it about things, and you try to make it fit to your profession, it doesn’t always work as well. But if you make it fun, just about dry cleaning, or, you know, first dates, or, you know, etc, then people learn the skill beside it. And the hardest time, the hardest thing for somebody to do when they’re used to giving out statements, is to stop and just think of what was the statement that I was going to give, and how could I just turn that around into a question? And when you learn to do that, that’s when you can, number one, lead, lead a conversation, lead a group. And number two is you can help to get people to discover this and to me, and that’s what I I know that you do. When you do your executive leadership, it’s about leading to people of the answer so they discover it, you know, and there’s a saying that we have is that information, information discovered, is more impactful than information told. And I that’s what I love. If you don’t mind, I, I’m going to use that. I, I will give you credit. I always believe in giving credit where credit is due. But I love that most important question and most important statement
Jay Williams 14:31
that’s just give you some advice now, I think we’re close enough that we could do it in front of your all your listeners,
Chris Baran 14:37
absolutely as a speaker, back the screen just a little bit yeah, in the confessional
Jay Williams 14:41
here, yes, you do, my son, just ask five questions and speak no more. Yeah, as a speaker, the first time you give the person credit, the second time you say, I’m not sure where I heard this, and the third time you own it. So yeah, as I’ve always said, yeah, I hope it is appropriate to give you. Advice
Chris Baran 15:00
in front of you, but I will take that on. I will use that.
Jay Williams 15:03
Yeah, I want to throw it back at you, because I hope the listeners pick up a fundamental piece of getting better at asking questions and shifting the thinking. You said you take what you’re thinking and you put it in a question. So can I put you on the spot, and just give an example of that for the listeners.
Chris Baran 15:24
Yeah, if I was to say, if I want to say this, if I was to say this, these, this post, it notes in here, if I say this, this post, it notes are, are great for keeping quick, short notes and and posting them down somebody else could find them. And you could just ask, turn that around into a statement. Just say, look at if it what would be the fundamental use that you could have for post it notes. Or I could say, what would be the advantage? What could I use if I wanted to make a note and give it to somebody? What could I do with this post it note, you know, so that I you know, you make you start to make them think. And half of the here’s what I learned about it, when you pose things in a question, even if you think you’re trying to narrow it down to get them to say something, they might say something that was completely different and way more profound than what you thought. Because the art of questioning isn’t taking it to where necessarily. And I want to qualify because in training, because in training, you know the answer, and they don’t. In coaching and sometimes in facilitation, you don’t know the answer, but they do. They just don’t know they know it, and you’ve got to lead them to find out what the proper answer is, even if you it’s not what you think it is, mostly in training, which means I know this content you don’t, and I’ve got to train you in it. I can still use questions, but I can make the questions into smaller questions, if it’s complex, so that I can take you to the answer. So if you would say, Well, what do you think this is for? Well, you might say, Well, you could make notes on it. Okay, good. Well, what would be a good example of a note? What could you use it for? And they might say, well, you know, you could take a note down. And when the doctor called today and and my wife needed to know that she needed to change something in her meds, I could take that down and write that down. Oh, you see? So I don’t, I don’t know exactly what they’re going to say, but I know that if I lead the questions, if they’re not quite doing the right right, that they’re not giving me the right answer, I can still say Good, keep them going on the question side, but then just ask them a different question. So, you know, rephrase the question so it kind of takes me from a training perspective, where I want to get them to to the right answer, but the trick is not to tell them, because you kind of rob them. You rob them of the answer. Rob them of the discovery. I am
Jay Williams 17:45
glad that they got to hear you say that, because it even lands on the air differently when you tell and you ask. And kind of working our way back, if people are taking notes, is you brought up a good point. We take great satisfaction human beings and being right, not you or I, know, because we’re other people. Yeah, other people, we are robbing them of the joy and the satisfaction of being right. And when you tell someone, you ask them a question you’ve been in a workshop, you go, you’re absolutely right, they light up. Yes. Dopamine is released through their body. So I think if you’re really as a leader or a teacher or an influencer trying to build someone’s self confidence in their decision making ability and to help them improve their thinking, this is the greatest opportunity, I think, if you and I’m just responding to some of the things that you said, is that it’s not what you say, it’s what you get them to say, yeah. And I remember this guy’s name was Leandro. We were in California. We’re doing a coaching workshop. I actually put it and I gave him credit, just so that, you down first and second time, yeah, yeah, no, unfortunately, I put it in print and yeah, so I could never take credit for this, but he stood up. He goes, I know exactly what you’re doing. He said, you’re helping people discover what they already know. Yeah. And Chris, I got goose bumps because he articulated so clearly. And I think that’s the opportunity that we miss, is to help people with their thinking and to give them confidence in their thinking and to help them and this is true coaching. And when you look at coaching versus consulting, versus cheerleading versus counseling, there are there from a neuroscience standpoint, there’s a big difference in what you’re trying to do. And as a coach, which I think you could function in all those capacities. By the way, I’m not minimizing them. That would be my default style is to ask them a question, give them a chance to be right, and they give. And I’m asking questions to know what you know, what you think and what you feel. Because I, if I’m going to help with your thinking is around what you know, what you think or what you feel, and feelings versus facts are. It’s a whole conversation all to itself. I, if you don’t mind, I’m going to throw an example. This just happened yesterday. I was working with the group, and they moved to a big, beautiful salon. They turned out they were closed 21 days in between. The move is supposed to be one day. So I’m sure everybody has some horror story like that. And so one of the stylists said to them, You know what? I think you owe me some money. They said, How’s that? They said, because of my loss compensation. And so the owners sharing this in the group and very upset? And she said, Well, just what was it that was keeping them in well, they weren’t going to have the amenities, and what amenities were you referring to? Well, coffee and wine. Now, I don’t know a lot of women. You probably know more than I do, but when it comes to their hair, there’s nothing that’s stopping them? A snow storm, a hail storm, right? The end of the world, coffee or wine is not going to do it. So to your point that you originally said that I hope people took notes on is you have to take what you’re thinking and turn it into a question. So I said, What were you thinking? She goes, I was thinking, WTF? I go, Well, that’s an open ended question. So give you any guidance there that that would be? She said, Really, a coffee. So I said, then that would be the question you would simply ask. Is you said you believe the reason they didn’t come in was because of the coffee? How true Do you believe that to be? That statement would be one example. Another question you could ask is, if you own the salon, and you know I was in here and the coffee was the only thing holding you back, what would you do? I would ask a question. If you ever have been working and I’ve seen you in the sun and you wanted to order a coffee or drink we didn’t have. How do you handle that? Uber Eats, Instacart, right? So the point is, is I’m just taking your strategy of what I’m thinking like, it’s not the coffee there. You could have figured this out yourself and forming questions I want if this is the appropriate spot with the questions, it’s not questions, it’s the right question that gets you the information and data either you need or they need. So as an example, someone might say, Well, why didn’t you use FOIL, or why did you waste so much color? Why questions. Take you back in time, and are problem focused? So another example, why were you late? Oh, I got home last night so tired, and I fell asleep, and then when I woke up, my phone wasn’t charged. I charged my battery. And have you guys ever had that? Oh, my God, that’s not right. We asked why it took them back in time. It became problem focused. And if the listeners are listening to you, and the questions you ask, they’re all, what, how questions. So you would simply ask what needs to happen so that you’re on time. Going forward, going forward, future based, solution based, well, maybe I shouldn’t go out late on the nights. Have to work early. That’s effective and efficient communication, leadership, influence
Chris Baran 23:33
what I love, and this kind of I love this conversation because it swings back to what you said earlier. I want to know. I want to know what you know. I want to know I want to know what you think, and I want to know how you feel. Tell me like because here’s a trap that so many owners, and whether you’re a leader in your team, whether you’re an owner, whether you know you’re in an independent and you have people that are just coming in, that you deal with sporadically, it’s what I find, is what I am. I love that you did is you did it without emotion attached to it. And I think that’s the art of when your great questioner is, if you can take a breath and know, and rather than letting your emotion come up. And I’m standard line that so many coaches use, emotion is high, intelligence is low, and that’s what generally happens, is, if you let your emotion go up, you can’t think properly, and then you’ll never going to come up with the right question. So with that, it generally what I like that you were talking about. You didn’t make the person the problem. And because if you would have said, Oh, you know, you’re constantly late, and what do you need to do then? Then, you know, if that makes the person the problem, but if you can make the problem the problem, like, here, look, we’ve got this, you’re late, and, you know, and I know that I’ve been there myself, but you know, the problem of you being late is the issue. So what I’d like to have good, great, honest conversation about, how can we deal that? So what do you think that you could do differently so that you could do that? And is there a way that we could Is there a way that we could solve that? Is there a way, like accountability wise? Do you need us to help you in some way, shape or form?
Jay Williams 25:16
I only because I think we’re close enough. Yeah, I’m going to challenge the last statement that you
Chris Baran 25:23
made good.
Jay Williams 25:26
But this be my last is
Chris Baran 25:29
a listen. We get, we get a little controversy on here. It’ll be all good. So I have no problem with that.
Jay Williams 25:35
So and I hear this quite often, and I think I hear it more in the beauty industry than the other industry, because I think we are people pleasers. We’re in pass we’re caregivers, we’re providers. What can we do? I just want to share with you, whether you’re a mom, you’re a dad, you’re a salon owner, you’re a leader, you have enough on your plate already. You have this magic plate. No matter how much you eat, nothing disappears. Yeah, yeah. And if I could take a step further, at the risk of alienating anyone, should be a small percentage in our industry. Most of the salon owners and operators are women. They’re the primary caregiver and the primary breadwinner, yeah, yeah. So when they get a problem, they’re like, You know what? Let me just solve this. I got 100 more. I got to deal with so I think when you share with them and you get to the point about a solution, I would ask them, What are your thoughts on what needs to happen so that we never have this conversation again. I like that if you want to get involved, which I’m not really looking to like, I think, like most people listening, I got enough going on. I would say, How can I help you with your thinking? I’m going to be very specific. I’m not helping with every I’m not picking you up, I’m not getting a new phone battery, I’m not changing your schedule. I’m not doing any of that. I just want to know, how can I help you with your thinking as it relates to getting a different outcome? Yeah, yeah. So if you don’t, and again, I’m not saying your perspectives not right. I just want to offer additional perspective, because there are some leaders and it’s your choice that derive a lot of satisfaction and have the value of altruism and helping other people. I just really want to challenge your thinking. Are you really helping them? Are you handicapping them for next time? Are you right? Their creativity, their ability to problem solve, their confidence in their own decision making,
Chris Baran 27:41
yeah? Because actually what you’re doing then is more enabling them, yeah.
Jay Williams 27:45
And if you’re a parent, we probably have all been guilty of it. And if you’re an owner and you care about your people, you’ve gone to the ball games, the birthdays, the bar mitzvahs, all those, the Barbie parties, anything else starts to be there. You have this affection for them and you want to help them. It’s just, is it helping them when you do most of the work?
Chris Baran 28:07
Yeah, no. Very true. Very true. And so in that, how would you because it’s very easy to that if something happens and you’re having a problem with a with a teammate, or whatever, and you’re and something’s going on, it is. It’s very easy for your emotion to go up or to get defensive from either side, like if you had to, if you had that situation coming up where somebody’s late or or their, you know, their their work style, their work ethic, is, is, is shifts on occasion, how is there? Is there something that, as a leader, you would advise anybody, whether you’re the the leader of the group or not, if you had to talk to somebody, call somebody on what they’re doing? Is there something that you do to keep your emotion in check and keep it from becoming combative, I’m
Jay Williams 29:09
going to take us potentially way off track with the understanding it’s still home base. Got it if you have clarity on your values and you have agreements versus expectations in place. An agreement is something I want you to do. You may or may not want to do. You haven’t agreed to an expectation. I’m sorry. An agreement is to what with when and an outcome. This makes the emotional part easier, because there’s an agreement in place. And so if you operate off of the value of respect and somebody is late, the conversation is not about the behavior you being late. This is about our value of respect. So Chris, you’re being late. I want to get your perspective. How respectful Do you think that was to the client? Uh, who had to wait, who thought they’re going to be here an hour, and now it’s now in 15 minutes? How respectful was that to the front desk, who now had to go back and shampoo, get someone to cover, someone to stay late? How respectful Do you think that was to me as the owner, who’s promoting a brand and marketing a brand, studies have shown that people have more readily responded to a value than a behavior. So if you can see me now, I’m not emotional at all. Yeah, this is an agreement that we put in place, and so I am just holding you accountable. And you can smile when you say that, yeah, it’s just, you know, we have a value of respect. And you know, part of what we include with respecting is everything, specifically time. And so Chris, I just, I want to know, and now I need to know what you know, what you think and what you feel, too, because some people have different definitions of respect. There’s if I’m 30 seconds late, I know I’m gonna be I will call you Chris and go, Hey, Chris, I’ve had people go, Jay, whenever you show up, it’s it’s fine. So they their intention may not be to be disrespectful. However, if you are emotionally charged, it’s going to dilute your ability to consider a perspective other than your own. And so the other thing I’d offer is I wouldn’t go into a rational conversation emotionally charged if you have clarity on your values and agreements in place, it’s a very simple conversation. So let’s just take the consultation as an example. And you know, you and I are working together, and I’ve shared the importance of it. And I said, you know, Chris, because we do track it, I notice we have a value of education that extends to every aspect and everybody who we encounter, including our clients, with consultation. So tell me what your understanding is of our value of education and how that applies to the consultation. I just I’m not assuming anything. They may have not made that connection. The other thing I would say is, when you ask questions, especially as a leader, and if you are looking to get a different outcome, two things go into everyone’s readiness level, it’s willingness and ability. And that’s why I’m asking questions. And I know you and the work that you do, you’ve had people look at you, go, I know that I heard that before. And what’s your question? Well, why aren’t you doing it? Then, right? Yeah, yeah. So it’s a great question. I wouldn’t start with why. I’d say, Well, if you if you know to do it, what would need to happen. So this becomes part of the client experience. And so I digress a little bit. Having that foundation plays into this, one of the things. And Chris, I think you might be aware of it just based on our conversation. Anybody listening is cognitive behavioral therapy. And so I don’t go, but a friend of mine goes, Chris, yeah. And what he says, I mean, they say, yeah, yeah. So the way that it works is, what drives performance is behavior, what drives behavior is emotions, and what drives emotions is thinking, and I will share with you in my experience, training has focused on behavior. It is heavily and if I could give a quick example, if you look at retail, so many people, we want to have retail classes. They have the manufacturers. They hire consultants to come in, and they focused on the behavior for over 70 years. So they had contests, they had commission, they had coercion. I don’t mean coercion in a bad way. But you know, if you do this, you get that the level system, right? Yeah, yep. And when I was looking at the pinch point applying this model, we never went deeper than the behavior. And when I spoke with stylist, their emotions, apprehension, anxiety, anger, I can’t take you through the whole alphabet, but that’s just the A’s, yeah. And then Chris, you’re going to be able to finish this sentence. If you can’t, Chris, you’ll be the first 123 years. No pressure, though. No pressure. Silas says, I’m a creative person, I am not a salesperson. So if you now look at this cognitive behavioral therapy, the thinking is, I’m a creative person, not a salesperson. My emotions are anger, anxiety, apprehension, just to name a few. Do you see why we can’t get the behavior and the performance now, some of you would go, Well, when I do contest, we did get a spike in sales. Sure, it just wasn’t sustainable, right? If you can shift the thinking, and that’s why asking questions is so important, is it’s about shifting thinking, yeah, and then shift. The emotions of behavior, you can shift behavior. And you’ve seen it because you the people have brought people in to do training, and it lasts the weekend, Monday, Tuesday, a week or two, and then it dissipates, because they only shifted the behavior, not to think the person still thinks that, you know, I’m not a salesperson, and I still feel the anxiety.
Chris Baran 35:20
Yeah, yeah. It’s interesting the you know, and I find it so interesting because, again, I just had that trip around the block and saw this, saw something that I knew from a different perspective that makes it fit to more in my mind. And it’s a summary. I’m going to kind of rewind and give you the spin that I’ve always heard on it, but I like what you’re saying about the thinking and the way that we’ve always tried to teach in our classes, how if you want to get results from somebody, we all know that if you want a result, that it’s the only way you got to change change your behavior. And the way we put it is you, it’s is you have to change your behavior, but if you truly want the results, you got to change your mindset as well. And what I think that like we’re saying that’s so similar in what we’re saying about mindset and thinking. And I had a great teacher that said, look at, there’s three areas when it comes to mindset that you have to look at, and that’s, that’s, it’s, it’s called probable fact or actionable, and it might be so I’m not a salesman, but so if, if I can talk to you all I want about, about behavior, have the contest, do everything, and probably I’m not going to change, and I can even talk to You on your mindset, and let’s talk about that. And if I could try to shift your mindset, and probably it’s because I’m dealing with behavior. If I say, Okay, let’s talk about this. And I give you every reason why you should change and in your if you’re thinking of it from that probable point that you’re going to say, well, you know what, Chris, you’re probably right. You know, I’ve seen what you’ve talked about. I see the results that are happening with other people. It’s not working for me right now. You know, whether they say it out loud or do it, it’s there. And then even if you can say to people, you know what I’ve seen, the facts you’ve told me all the facts of why I should do this, why I should be selling more, why what different? What that’s going to do to my family. You’re going to show how I’m going to make more money and how that benefit is going to help all around in all my relationships. But I’m just not buying it yet. And the point is is, how do you talk to the person. That’s what I’d really love to hear you talk on is, is, if you want to get them to shift that mindset, shift that thinking, they say that it’s got to be actionable. So in other words, they would have to say, okay, I get it. Now. I’m willing to shift now. I’m willing to change my behavior, which will change my results. How do you tell me your take on that.
Jay Williams 38:01
So with this question asking, and you know, I keep deferring to you, because there’s a lot of things when we in Orlando standing at the kissing booth that we weren’t kissing each other. Neither one of us was walking the booth. We were in line for anybody who
Chris Baran 38:16
were holding hands but not kissing each other. Yes,
Jay Williams 38:22
you talked about this round table that you’re going to have, and you’re going to give a topic, and you ask questions. And so I’m referring back to things that you said. It’s about what you’re thinking. So when you just said, what you said to me is that, you know, Chris, you’re probably right.
Jay Williams 38:42
How often do you hear that, by the way? Was that the example
Chris Baran 38:45
purely in them, but because we’re talking mindset, and they’re thinking, they’re going, yeah, yeah, whatever, I think that’s probably what. So
Jay Williams 38:52
if they said you’re probably right, I would ask them, What part are you saying that I’m right about? Yeah, there’s something that I’m looking to do to connect neurons in their brain and to make connections that may not be there again. It’s not what I say, it’s what I get them to say, yeah, so that would be an example of what you talked about, what I’m thinking. Listen, whenever someone goes, Jay, you’re right, which rarely, never happens, Chris, like, I don’t have an example of that, but if they did, my natural question is, is, oh, what part did you think was right? Right? Because you and I so much just going through our heads. So that would be a natural question. And I would say, Well, what part are you buying into? And what I’m doing is I am guiding them in their thinking, because I’m looking to balance the scales. They’ve let some part that they don’t align with way heavier than the parts they do. So that’s okay. I just want to make sure that we got everything on the scale that you do agree with. And then I would ask them if there was a shift in your mindset. Do. Would get us on the same page. Where would that need to happen? I am literally pretending like I have no idea what’s going on. And by the way, I coach in biotech, finance, medical and people go, what do you know about that? I said, Those aren’t my areas of expertise. Mine is around the human condition. So, and I’ve had companies that go well, do you have biotech experience? I say I may have misunderstood. Am I helping you with product development, with the people? Because I if I misled you, I have no experience. My area of expertise is around people. So if you were a leader, and the reason I say that to you is that there will be leaders. They’ve said, I’m sure they’ve said to you, I don’t want to ask a question because I don’t know the answer to it. And like, if you watch Law shows, that’s one of the things lawyers say. I never ask questions. A proficient coach will ask questions all day long that they don’t know the answer to and it’s something you alluded to, is that they know that there’s possibilities out there that they may not have considered, and the only way that I’ll get exposure to those is by exploring your thinking. So for that person with the mindset, I would say, Well, how important do you believe mindset is to your success? I don’t know where to start. Chris, I don’t know if it’s with mindset. Yeah, that stuff’s a little hokey to me, Jay, you know my dad, you know, got up every day, 430 in the morning, and he went and he worked on cars all day, and came, all I know is working hard, and he hated his job. But you know what? We had a house. We had a station where, right, I don’t know their thinking around it, and so they may. I’ve had people tell me, Jay, I don’t have to like my clients or my job. I just need to come and do my job. Then I say, you know, I tell them, Listen. Then what do you think your job is? How much is client satisfaction? How much is your emotional state impact the client experience? I think if people are listening, what they’re going to see is that we don’t have a script for them. There’s not a workbook. When you hang up, it’s giving you the thinking that you articulated. Whatever I’m thinking, I’m going to form in a question. It’s the most important question. It’s not what I say, it’s what I ask. You have to be in the moment, and you can’t be emotional. You can have any preconceived ideas. How many times have people said it’s a waste of time to give them feedback? It’s a waste of time to train that, train that person? Your brain subconsciously will find that and support that. So if you’re going to be proficient as a leader and you’re going to use this coaching methodology. You have to clear your mind of any preconceived ideas to open up the possibility. So how well did I answer that question? It’s a great question. I hope I answered it.
Chris Baran 42:56
I bet we have something in common. I have this love hate relationship. I hate paying for something that I’m not using. I hate working in a small, cramped box, yet I love working in a cool salon that impresses my clients, and I love the culture and synergy of a team while enjoying the freedom of being my own boss. You too. What if all that was available to you at the salon you rent from meet artist on go, a game changing way to rent salon space with artist on go, you only pay for the time you’re behind the chair. You can choose a salon that fits your vibe, location and amenities. With artist on go. You’re a part of a stylist community, not hustling alone. Plus you get to enjoy perks like clean towels and back bar supplies. Check out artist on go, built for stylists serious about their clients and growing their brand without the hassles of managing a space. Here’s the kicker, you can save more than 50% on your rent to find out more. Go to B, I T, dot L y slash artist on go. CB, that’s B, I T, dot L y slash artist on go. CB, no. I think you did because it was, it kind of gives me the next kind of lead in great segue, by the way. Because I think that when you talked about how to get the emotion out of it, and if you just stop thinking, I mean, if you think of it the other way around, if they’re a creative and and if you are a creative and all you’re thinking about is past old ideas, all you’re going to come up with creatively is past old ideas. And you know this, when this concept was put to me about if you want to be creative, stop thinking. Don’t think. Think, just put an idea in your brain. I want to make something out of XYZ, and don’t think about it anymore. Don’t, don’t go and try to do it, because then you’re just going to do old ideas. But if you say, I want to make, you know, and right now, I’m going to an old idea that that because I’m doing this, something that I did. I had a I wanted to make hair in an avant garde look look like. And I very careful about saying this, because unless you’re Canadian, you don’t know, generally, most people don’t know what hoar frost is, and they can get the wrong idea hoarfrost is that the sparkles and the x’s and then the hashtags that you see on trees when it freezes. But that’s that’s called horror frost, W, H, O, A, R, hoar frost, and but you see that crystallization in it. And I kept thinking I wanted to do something. I never had the idea about Chris, about crystallization, but I just said, I want to do something different. And it was just by not thinking about anything and just doing something. And I was trying to make a base. Couldn’t figure it out, and I tried. I just took up this old crepe here, and I just kept cutting it up and sprinkling on the bottom of this base would look like hell. But then I said, that’s a bad idea. But then that happened, and I went, that’s how I do it. I just do it. And instead of putting it on as a base, I make the shape onto that. So if the creativity of it comes from not thinking, and it’s kind of, it’s like if you say, if you, if you think of your mind like a furnace. And I put and I got an open door, and I put an idea into there, and all I’ve got in there is the things I’ve done in the past, how to do, how I cut the front, how I cut the back, how all of those things, you’re generally going to come out with a combination of old ideas, which still is old ideas. But if you put it into your furnace, your brain, and inside your brain is nothing which most men have the ability to do, is if you just put it in there and you just let it simmer in the back of your brain, the universe will tell you it might be today, it might be tomorrow. You might be driving down the road, but you just say, Oh, there’s the idea. You look at a billboard, you see something, somebody says a word, and that’s where the idea comes from, just but you weren’t thinking about it. And that’s where I really feel that the difference between creativity and and just doing something that’s old on a technique wise, comes from. And that’s what I love about if you’re it sometimes, if you just don’t think I’m getting excited, that took me so far off track, I’m having a harder time pulling it back. I have if you
Jay Williams 47:47
want me to, I can pull back. Do it. You do it for me. You Well, first of all, thank you for not asking me my definition of horror frost. Yeah, I would have been, yeah, wrong.
Jay Williams 48:00
Here’s my takeaway from what you said, is that, as you’re talking about clipping in the hair, you have to be in the moment. That’s really what I heard. And we have the capability to time travel, right? We can go back and think about what we used to do, or what we hope things should be and for people who are going to be proficient at this art and science of human engagement, you have to be present in the moment, yeah. And so I think, from an artistic standpoint, I hope I’m articulating what you said. It came from you just being in the moment and feeling out the situation. And you do get this guidance based on your experience for what’s going on and with asking questions, it’s the same way I have to disregard what happened in the past. I’m optimistic about the future. Part of what I do with is, and you have to have clarity on this is, Are you here to judge? Are you here to help and so often with people’s questions, I a credit card company. Something happened. We always pay our bills. Sometimes something happened. I asked the person I go, Are you reprimanding me, like, Are you here to help me what? She goes, No, no, I’m not. I said, Well, it just felt like that, right? I think sometimes with our questions, it feels that way. It’s accusatory, it’s not inquisitive, and you can’t be inquisitive and accusatory simultaneously. Yeah, and I think that’s where we may miss and another reason you don’t want to ask why questions is it puts people on the defensive. Yeah, so I think you know being present, knowing that prior to coming in, I’m here to help, I’m here to help, I’m not here to judge. Have a cute little story. You want to hear it? I’d love it. It’s about church in a strip club,
Chris Baran 49:59
a. Oh yes, yeah, I’m more intrigued. You’re more
Jay Williams 50:03
intrigued now. So there was a church had been around for about 90 so my thing is, about 94 years or so, no neighbors still left or to the right, and one day a for sale sign goes up on the property, and the same day it’s sold. And so some of the members of the Church go down to the township, and they said, Hey, we got new neighbors. We want to see who they were. And they looked through the file. They said, Oh, it’s a strip club. So if you’re tracking in the story, there’s a church, and right next door is a strip club. So some of the members got some of the members together, and they petitioned in front of the land, and some of the members got a group together, and at midnight on Friday and Saturday, they’d make pancakes and bacon and eggs, and for two hours they just they’d serve those those people who are working next door to them. And it really speaks to your thinking. For some of those people, they’re thinking, we’re here to judge, and their emotions were anger and apprehension and resentment, right? And the behavior was to pick it. And for some of the people, the difference between picketing and pancakes was we’re just here to help. We’re not here to judge. Yeah, yeah. There’s some excitement, there’s compassion and empathy. And if you look at the performance, the church is very similar to a salon. You just want to get right butts and seats. People, yeah, yeah, help people and get butts and seats. Yeah, yeah. Which do you think would serve that end goal of getting butts and seats? And so that’s why I think it’s imperative if you’re going to be effective as a leader, as a teacher, as a coach, you said you have complete clarity on what you’re here to do. And sometimes I get caught up. I go, whoa. I sound like I was here to judge when I’m you know the comments I was going to make.
Chris Baran 51:49
Listen The and I want to throw this one at you is that, as you just talked about leader and I, I don’t know if it’s just under industry or whatever, whether it’s an overall feeling, but somehow there’s this feeling or correct me if I’m wrong here is that the leaders have to be the boss, you know, so like, are you still leader? If you’re not the boss or the owner of the company or whatever is, what’s your take on that and that boss versus leader?
Jay Williams 52:23
I think I want to answer it two ways. One is, I think you can lead from anywhere. Yeah, yeah. I this was years ago, but I was volunteering somewhere, and there’s a homeless shelter, and this will make sense. I tell the rest of story, but I happen to get there early and there’s a woman there. I said, All right, first time, how do I help? And she said, Well, what are you good at? I go, I’m good at people telling me what to do. I’ve been married, but I don’t take any initiative. She said, All right, well, the tables are over there. And I said, How would you want me to set them up? She said, I’m open. What are your thoughts and how? And how? And I said, Well, how many people are going to be there? And she told me, so I set the chairs and tables. I ended up putting on tablecloths and napkins and everything before anyone got there. And at the end of the night, you know, you can imagine, you felt really good as going on, that’s leaving, and the person who headed up, what was going on there? I said, there’s somebody here that is great. I got here, I didn’t know what to do, and they got a lot out of me, and I felt as though it was time well spent. And they said, Who was it? I say, didn’t catch their name, but they’re wearing so and so they go. They’re here every week. They’re a homeless person.
Speaker 1 53:34
Wow.
Jay Williams 53:37
And it really to answer your question, is, it’s hard for a leader to be everything. And if you own your own business, you know now I gotta be a marketing expert. I have to be an HR person. Have to be a creative person. It’s too much. You need your people to lead in whatever capacity they can. So the first thing is, do you have to be a leader? As the owner of the salon? I’m not going to say, yes, what I would say is that you need leadership. Yeah, you can’t operate without that. And so if you are not going to do it, you still need to provide that for your people. So I think I’ve seen assistants and new talent. They’re just remarkable, right? And they’ve seen people being there for years, that they’re oxygen thieves, they’re a waste of skin. I
Chris Baran 54:25
have no idea. Yeah, I see. I love it, and I I love where you’re going. Because, you know, when mentorship is another one that I find leadership and mentorship kind of have this similar ring to them. Maybe they’re a little bit different in definition, and I don’t even know if I could explain it. However, I can remember being at a program, and I asked somebody, because we’re going to talk about mentorship, and I said, How many people in the room are a mentor to someone? And hardly any hands went up. And then, and I said, Well, how many people. People have helped somebody with whatever you’ve done with the some, something in the salon, something you did something with them. It might have been an extra neighbor or whatever. And and then more hands go up. And I said, Well, how many? Even if somebody asked you, I’ve, I need some advice on this, and more hands would have finally wait. And I said, Look at then you’re all mentors, because it mentorship is nothing more than helping somebody in a situation, and now you’ve mentored them to a degree, but whether they call you a mentor is is a choice, because people will say, Well, I want you to mentor this person. I said, Well, I can’t mentor them. I can coach them. I can help them, but they have to choose me as a mentor. Otherwise, I’m just coaching and and I think you can be both, but it’s, it’s kind of that it’s a double edged sword, and quite frankly, what I’m, I’m espousing here is my opinion, you know, and I that’s all the way I feel towards it. I feel that, you know, you’re either a coach, you’re a mentor, or you’re you’re an aspirational person. For them, you’re going to aspire to be like that person, but not them. But if you’re a coach, you’re going to help them along. I and you probably are going to pay for a coach, but mentors. You know, it could be that I have a coach that I use all the time. I, you know, I pay him a great deal of money every month, and I’m happy about it, and but he’s also a mentor, and he’s also aspirational to us. So I think they there’s, it’s kind of a triple edge sword in there. Do you think, what’s your take on it? Do you feel that leadership fits into that mold as well.
Jay Williams 56:43
So with leadership, I think it’s around influencing and getting people to follow you. So let me I don’t there’s longer definitions, but if no one’s following you, you’re just someone who’s out taking a walk, basically, yeah, yep. So let me just say for leadership. I think that there’s different approaches to leadership. So when you talk about coaching, you talk about counseling, you talk about cheerleading, you talk about being a critic, you talk about being a consultant and a mentor, there is a difference. So when you look at a mentor, and I think you articulated, a mentor would come in and they would speak about their experiences. They would, they would, there’d be a lot of telling going on, because they would share that, you know, as grew soon, I was in Europe, and that that’s their goal, and they’re going to show you some things. They would be a subject matter expert. A coach is not a subject matter expert. Stylistically, it’s asking versus telling. With the coach, the answers come from the coachee. With a mentor, the answers come from the mentor. A consultant would be the same way. So if somebody is going to come in consult on your finances or your front desk, they would be a subject matter expert. The question the answers would come from them. So there’s cheerleading and listen, there’s there’s things that work for you with those styles and things that can work against you that you just want to be aware of, because with the cheerleader, they may provide that aspiration and that inspiration for you. And so whereas a coach truly if you feel inspired after that would be some connection you made, but that would not be the role of the coach to do that. They may not help with motivation or inspiration. They would help with transformation in your thinking. Yeah. So these sound like nuanced differences. As a leader, it’s imperative that you know what you’re doing, because my experience, and this is true globally, is that people don’t need more training. Unequivocally, when they’ve done research, people want coaching, not training. They know how to do the job. There is there’s a pinch point and or they can’t connect these dots. So what you said, I think is true. I think it’s important, if you’re a leader, that you differentiate, you understand where you serve. I’ve seen most, a lot of owners that they’re just great being cheerleader, Secretary. I’m a people pleaser. I can’t hurt anyone’s feelings. I’d say, good for you. At least you have that component, who’s going to be the coach in the environment, who’s going to be the mentor in the environment, who’s going to be the consultant and the environment. And so do you have to provide all those functions? No, but you need to make sure that they are provided there. Yeah, yeah. How well did that answer it?
Chris Baran 59:39
Did you know? Because I think it’s, it’s like, to me, all of these things are a little bit like, there’s a ball up in the air and it’s going to land again. But I think that, that there is that, and I think the more people get clarity on what their positioning is, because that, that’s where I kind of where I always hit that that, like you said, if you. You, if you have nobody following you, then you’re just taking a walk. But if you there’s, there’s the people that that feel that’s the boss, therefore I must follow and and I think that’s kind of the weakest part of of leadership, is that you’re just following because you have to. And if you can shift that mo to to that you’re looking at more after them, rather than just giving orders.
Jay Williams 1:00:29
How do you feel about that? Well, here’s what I’d say, they’re always looking at you, yeah, so whether you like it or not, yeah. I think it’s imperative as a leader. I think as a leader, what’s important is that you embody the core values of things that are the non negotiables there. I think you need to support that infrastructure of whoever’s going to hold those people accountable. Because for a successful culture, they do hold their people accountable. You know, one of the things that I think we really need to rethink of and I find this in small businesses. I mean humanity scalable, and it happens in salons, is quite often there is some family element. Is my aunt, it’s my mom working the first front desk. It’s my sister who’s the Assistant. Like you can relate to this. My dad does the books. And we go, well, we want to be a family. You’re a team. Is more indicative of who you are and who you want to be. It’s important distinction there. And so I think there’s responsibilities as a leader. What you’re saying is that they can create a clear, concise and compelling vision for people of, how can I survive and thrive in this environment? So I hope I’m answering your question. I think when you talk about leader versus management, that’s where managers that’s over process and procedure. To me, leadership is the people Convo component, and so for anyone who’s listening, I feel bad for for entrepreneurs, because they go, I don’t want to be a leader. I was working with a dentist, and he goes, I went to school, medical school. I just want to work on people’s teeth. Now. I have the receptionist, I have the hygienist, I have payroll. It’s not what I wanted to do. Realize where you contribute, and you need to check those boxes, your product, your process, and your people. And if it’s not you that someone’s there, because you can hand off the responsibility, it’s the accountability that you can’t your people will always look at you as the owner. And you know, why are you looking I’m not good at that stuff, because you were the owner. We look at the highest from a societal standpoint, we always look at for the highest ranking person in a situation, we do it’s natural. So I hope I’m answering your question, but there is some responsibility there and accountability. The accountability is going to be on you. You can’t hand that off, and you’re always going to have to deal with that, and so you can hand off those responsibilities. And some salon owners, you know, they hire managers to do that, and you just because you’re not good at it, you cannot do something. Here’s the other thing, if you don’t mind me, I might be on a tangent here, so just feel free to pull me back in. There’s so much talk about AI now, it’s every podcast. It’s everything you see. It’s, yes, it’s artificial. It’s augmented information too. And I think if you treat it that way, it shows up differently for you. I think that’s going to be highly effective in process and procedure. They have aI coaches now I just emotional intelligence. This company is a premier company for this just interview. Just introduced a tool that’s AI coaching. It may tell you, it’s what you say, how you say it, and when you say it, AI will tell you what to say, yeah. But to your point, when you’re on stage, you got to be in the moment. You got to fill the audience. You got to feel which way the winds blowing. You got to feel that model, right? And so I think AI will help you. I just, we need this EI, this emotional intelligence, ability to ask questions and do those things. And AI could augment it, but it’s, it’s still going to rely on you as a leader to have this high emotional intelligence. So I think it’s going to be a combination of AI and EI that will make this great leader.
Chris Baran 1:04:33
Yeah, 100% because, I think, because it’s, you know, when I think back, kind of what we talked about a few bits ago was about the emotion that goes into it sometimes, as the owner, and I’m kind of tie this back with another little analogy that we had about the leadership. And I see this in salons when I go in to do work where you’ll have the appointed leader that’s generally. Generally, could be your artistic director. Could be your it could be your education manager. Could be the owner, the longest tenured employee, the longest tenured person, or whatever. But then you’ve got, if you look at it, that you’ve got somebody in there that can sway the conversation anyway, because the people that they choose to follow might be none of the above and one or two of the other people. So how would you bring that person into the fold? And maybe I need to give you a little more clarity on what my where my thoughts are, is sometimes our appointed leaders aren’t the ones that the group chooses to follow. So if you have those other like people, how would you work them so that you could either what’s the best way to do? Are you the one that they’re willing to follow? Do you pull them in? You let go of the other person? How would you handle that
Jay Williams 1:05:59
lot going on my head? So I’m going to try to take it out, and we may have to put it together. I’m putting it all on the table. Yeah, there is a scenario that has happened for years, and I see it in every industry. The Super worker becomes a supervisor, your top stylist becomes your manager, your top chemist right becomes the director. Top engineer becomes this product or project manager, and there’s no correlation in the skill set. And this is why I feel for owners, because entrepreneurs is different definition than a leader. Yeah, it is so hard for salon owners. They struggle with entrepreneur. They go, No, as a stylist, I didn’t like working for this person. I just want to work somewhere. I’m not an entrepreneur. I wasn’t going to go out and invent something and do, but all of a sudden they’re entrepreneur. Entrepreneurs generally will hire leaders as they grow on So, yeah, that’s one thing as we talk about this. The other thing is that, and I’m writing something about character versus culture, and it’s imperative in your environment that you clearly define your culture with your values. Culture has to do with what the team is. The characteristic character is with the person, and the person’s character could not be bad or wrong. It’s just wrong for your culture. Yeah. And so do people have respect and trust in who you put in place? So let me just start off with when you gave the person a new title, did you have a new job description, and if they didn’t have the position they had before, would they qualify for this position? Yeah, I’ve seen you’ve been around long. And are you 30? 788, okay, yeah, you know you’ve seen with distributors, right? How many times have you seen like a mom and pop or someone starts a distributor and the aunt is doing payroll. Now, they’ve grown to, I don’t know, 910, 15, $30 million and that person’s now the CEO. The position outgrew person, right? And I’ve seen in salons, was the three of us, and then we started. Now we have 30 people. And now, right? They’re the person is they’re the manager, then they’re the manager now, but the positions outgrown them. So if you’re listening, it’s not an indictment of you. In fact, congratulations that things have grown. I just want you to look at it through a different filter. Who is right then may not be now, who are leaders in your culture and who makes them? I think the leaders and the leaders that you like, they embody your values, and they turn your values into a compelling cause for others to follow. That’s who my leaders need to be. It’s not based on tenure because you’re the best stylist. It’s a different job description, yeah. How well did that answer?
Chris Baran 1:09:02
I think it. I loved it. And I want to kind of end up on on this one right here. Is that, because all the way through, and I’ve been writing notes all the way around, because not only in my things that I want to ask, but things I’m learning and, and I’ve got many notes in here, and every time that there’s the word value in there, and, and there’s one thing that it’s interesting. We were doing a program, and they were talking, we were talking about creating codes of honor and for our business. And before you can really create the code, you have to identify the values that you have each end of version, not only the value, but your definition of the value? So because I remember having this very long conversation with a whole bunch of group with a whole group people, because one person said that our value should be love. We should love everything that we do, and we should love all the people around us, and if that’s your only def. Definition of it, then one person raised their hand said, Well, I don’t agree with that, because I love my family, I respect you, but I don’t love you like I love my family. So that definition doesn’t work for me. So I think there’s the thing that I’m alluding to here is, I think before you have anything, I first I’m guilty, started a business had nothing to do with what my values were, that when I hired somebody, what’s their values? Did they fit together, you know? And does that fit as a part of our culture? Could you just like, Am I off topic? Am I on? What’s your thoughts on? That
Jay Williams 1:10:37
I had very strong thoughts, and I think that you’re right on, can I get on a soapbox, just please, just for a second with the values my experience has been specifically in the beauty industry, because they are collaborative and they’re people pleasers that coming up with their values has Become a team exercise. Yes? So when they say, Well, what do you think our value should be? What do you think? And then they put fence post marks, and which ones are we going to eliminate? So let me just pause there, if your methodology for determining values for your business is based on your staff, what happens when someone leaves? What happens, do you have a walkout? Do you then do the exercise? And now the values, the core DNA of your business, has now changed. And you know, for people have gone to song, five years, 10 years, 15 years, they could have gone through. I mean, you know, Chris, some people, they go through 10 to 120 people. So I think there is a flaw in that. Yeah, and I’ve also seen the very person who started the business, none of their values are in there. So here’s what I would offer. Is that one, if you are a salon owner, find out what your values are. You will be the consistent element. If you sell the business, then somebody else can come in, just like they do in corporate America. If there’s different values there, there’s over 400 values, by the way, if you break your values down and you this is where you’re going, and I hope they listen to what you said, and you begin to define them, and you break them down to their irreducible essence, values all give us the same thing when you break it down, whether it’s education, altruism, creativity, flexibility, gives us significant self worth, sense of longing, and, ultimately, safety, yeah, so don’t worry if people have different values. What’s important is that they know your values. The Code of Conduct will come from that. The example you gave about defining values is imperative. I use the value of family. You’ve you’ve been in enough situations, if you went around a room of five people, let alone 10 or 15, you could wind up with a good seven to 10 definitions. So you could have a divorce, you could have a single parent, you could have a same parent. You could have somebody who is adopted, right? I mean, the scenarios go, I’m living with my uncle, who’s really my father, because I grew up right? Some, my parents were never married. They have all these different some, it’s a nuclear family. It’s just what was born in others, my cousins and uncles who live with us, their experience around family. We love if you do what we want, if we don’t, we don’t love you others. No, we love unconditionally. So it’s imperative that you define what that value means to you and what you get when that value is lived. So there is a process where we go through taking your values, and I’m going to differentiate, because you’ve heard it in here between values and core values. What values are your non negotiables? That’s what you put a job into relationship over. Yep, you could have ever value of education. If you meet most of my friends, Chris, you have not guessed that about me, but you know what they’re they’re respectful, they’re loyal, and they’re kind people. Those are my non negotiables. Got it. So in a culture, somebody has a value that’s not yours. The question is, is, if you have a great I mean, it makes things easier, can you support it? So whether you have a value of education believe it. Can you show up every time we have education. This is what goes on the interview process, not after. What’s unacceptable is for you to violate it. Yeah, that’s the non negotiable value of education every conversation. But you know what? They’re the other things, and those. Of a non negotiable. So I think identifying your values is an owner and turning those into a compelling cause for others to follow, defining them, developing a code of conduct and behaviors. So I gave you an example. We have a value respect you are late. We respect people’s time. We respect their space, we respect their beliefs, and we respect them, and we’re respectful to them, whether we respect them or their beliefs or not. You need to get very specific. Have someone go, I said I thought you have a value of respect, they go, Yeah, but you haven’t met that person. I don’t respect them. If you have a value of respect, you’re respectful whether you respect them or not. And then once you have these agreements in place, it makes a lot of these other conversations very easy. And I will tell you, for anyone who’s listening, we used to, I did a project at Microsoft is for over 1000 managers globally, not alone. I don’t want to mislead you, there’s a team of of eight who did this, and it was weeks and months of us doing this. I’ve done it successfully via zoom with groups within 90 minutes. So some people are intimidated by the concept because they Ah, there’s our values, our mission and vision. And something else I introduced to replace mission and vision, because I don’t see people gleaming on to that is just your purpose and your promise, and it has universal applicability. My promise to you as an employee is same as my promise as a client, same as promises a vendor, right? It’s promise purpose, so, so if anybody hears it, they go, Yeah, I love it. It’s overwhelming. It’s a whole workshop. I don’t think people want retreats. They want results. So my leadership, no disrespect by anyone’s doing retreats. That wasn’t my point. It’s just stylistically, I try to get people what they need within 90 minutes as it relates to leadership, because they don’t even have 90 minutes to be a leader. They need quick thinking and solutions.
Chris Baran 1:17:03
Wow. You know that’s this, is why I always enjoy whether we’re having a coffee, whether we’re at a show, kibitzing, or whether we’re doing this and having a really in depth conversation, is that you bring so much, and I’m going to use the word value to what you deliver. And I just wrote this down at the end in here, is that what I really believe is that, do you universe always gives you what you need, when you need it, whether you want it or not. And and I just and I love it, because everything we talked about I have, I have something that’s coming up that I need to do, and, and you’ve given me a lot of great info and help to shift some thinking that I have, and and for that, I’m eternally grateful. And I can honestly say that that’s why you’re the kind of human being that you are. So I just want to say thank you.
Jay Williams 1:18:04
I I appreciate that. I mean, the times you visit me in prison, I appreciated that too. So I just want to thank you.
Jay Williams 1:18:13
You know, I want to share like, if anyone’s listening, I one of the things I’ve always been drawn to you is that there’s this reciprocity in the conversation, open to different ideas and asking questions. And I believe life can be this way, if we’ll just try to understand and communicate from the other person’s perspective and be open to thinking of possibilities other than our own. And wouldn’t it be great if everybody could communicate this way? And I believe we can, yeah, through these asking questions, I think it helps. Can you imagine, if for every major conflict, and let’s not go into what they are, that you just said, Hey, you know what? Just I want to get your perspective on this. How do you define that collaboration you talk to how do you define, you know, a quality? What? What do you what’s your definition of fair and equal? And you were open to different perspectives. So I appreciate that about you, and thank you, because I mean, for me, it stretches my thinking as well. I don’t equate it to the time
Chris Baran 1:19:31
you visited. I’m not minimizing please, the file wasn’t hard on the teeth.
Jay Williams 1:19:39
I know, though it was on the guy’s back, but Yeah,
Chris Baran 1:19:43
listen, I know that there’s owners, or possibly even people that are on their leadership team, or somebody that’s as a stylist in the salon, or in the an SD nails, whatever, and they’re listening to this, and they’re saying, Damn, our, our, the owner, leader. Boss of our group needs to learn from you. How do they get a hold of you? Would they do
Jay Williams 1:20:08
there’s something that I’m excited about that I want to make available to the folks I’m not good at selling, so I don’t have that offering, but if anybody’s listening, can help me with that definitely open. So the website is the JW co.com the JW co.com there is Jai. So if you want to hear what I have to say without talking to me, you can actually go online there and say, Hey, I’m going into conversation, potentially will be a little bit confrontational. How would you open that? So I want that’s available for people. I have two quizzes or assessment, one’s for leadership and one’s for coaching, and you can take that to 10 to 12 questions, and it’ll give you ideas on what you can try, if those are areas that you’re looking to grow and it’s a mirror. There’s no judgment there. So that’s available to you. The third thing is, I have office hours with Jay, and the way that it works, there’s no pitch, no charge, just conversation. So it’s Fridays, from 8am to 12pm Eastern Standard Time and again. There’s no charge, no pitch, just conversation. So if there’s things like you’ve seen in a post or something that I said that, you go, Hey, I just like to chat those office hours. You go to the website under Contact, hit on there, block out, 30 minutes. And you know, for me, people will what’s in it. For you, it’s just learning, you know this, I’m just fascinated by the human dynamic, and want to be of help. So that’s, that’s what I get out of it. So those are three things that, if they want to engage. And if there’s something else that goes a little deeper, you can just hit the contact. And I always respond within 24 hours, good. Well,
Chris Baran 1:22:10
I’m going to be your agent here. And so if somebody wants you to come in, do you go into either salons or Zoom work or whatever? Can they hire you to work with their team and and and work along to help to get them to an answer of whatever that answer might be. Do you do
Jay Williams 1:22:27
that? No, but that’s a great idea. I just do this for free. Chris, yeah. I just Yeah. I have these thoughts, yeah. So what you guys can do is it’s a smarter room.com, smarter room.com. Smarter room.com, and if you’re smiling a little bit, I didn’t come up with it, but there was this old saying, if you’re the smartest person in the room, you should find a new room. I’m not saying it’s the smartest room. I’m just saying it’s a smarter room. Yeah. And so what that is, is it’s designed for people who don’t have time to get away for a full day, for two days, and they just want incremental knowledge. So it’s 90 minutes, it’s once a month, it’s for up to eight people. And what we do is you can certainly create the time the way you do. So I have people that go, Hey, Jay, we’re moving to a new location. We’re having challenges with the staff. We want to enhance our values. We need to work on our communication, our coaching, or using my book, this versus that. We have it mapped out. So if you go, you know what? I want to just augment. But the speaker can’t budget wise, bring them in. I can do that one time. You can do it once a quarter. You can do a 12 consecutive months. And so we have groups that are doing that with their leadership teams. And then I also do in salon as well. So whether you’re just looking to do something special for the team, or people for their annual meetings have wanted to bring someone in, and we focus on emotional intelligence, so we talk about communication conflict. I don’t know, is there much conflict? And yeah, okay, you guys can Yeah, you can skip that one. So if there was, yeah, if there was hypodermic is it hypothetically or hypodermically? It’s hypodermically, okay. Thank you. Yes, I just lost all credibility there. Yeah, yeah. So you, yeah, you can certainly do that if that’s what is best for your team. So what I want to do is make sure that we’re meeting people where they’re at and giving them the thinking, the skills and the confidence to lead today, because things are so uncertain now, and as a leader, you can lead uncertainty certainty. You can’t be uncertain and unclear. What our work will do is give you the clarity on how to navigate during these uncertain times. Yeah,
Chris Baran 1:24:58
yeah. Well, for being our. For our value and leadership Guru, I just want to say, Jay, it’s always a pleasure, and I crave these times when you get to and we don’t get them to do them often enough. So I just want to say thank one more time. Thank you.
Jay Williams 1:25:16
Well, it’s an honor. I have to say, for those of you who are listening, I didn’t know who Chris was when I first heard him speak. And for those of you who’ve met and may be able to relate to the experience, but we were speaking at the same event, and I went up, I go, Oh my gosh, you were great. The one line that I loved you said the girl’s name, she goes, That’s not my name. You go, same thing, different letters. So I appreciate a sense of humor, but just your the way you moved around the stage and way you connected with such a large audience. And so I was talking to my friend, Chris Salome, and he was, he’s a big deal. He said, I gotta tell you, this is, he said, I worked on a team, and Chris is an educator, and Giovanni, who you know too, who those both are really great guys. Chris said I saw the single best performance in my career on stage by Chris Baran, and I hope I get to witness that at some time. Yeah, he’s he. They’re quite complimentary, and you have a great humility about you, my friend.
Chris Baran 1:26:23
Thank you. I I’m the one good thing about 75% of the people listen so they won’t see my flushed face here, but just for everything you do, I just one more time. Got to say thank you so much,
Jay Williams 1:26:36
Jay. Is it clear gift for me I look forward to next time. Take care. Cheers.
Chris Baran 1:26:43
Thanks again for watching this episode, and if you liked what you heard, remember to smash that like or follow button, depending on your preferred platform, and make sure to share it with anyone you know that might be a fellow head case. Head cases is produced by cut action media, with Marjorie Phillips doing the planning parts, Lee Baran on the video bits, and Adrian Taverner mixing the audio jazz you.
Discover more from CBcom
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
