ep42 – Vivienne Mackinder

Get ready for this superstar. Her accolades are awe inspiring. Seven-time NAHA winner. Lifetime Achievement Award winner. Intercoiffure Icon and first female director for Intercoiffure North America. Creative Director for Trevor Sorbie. She is a film documentarian and I know her best as a brilliant editorial stylist. I could go on and on, but I can’t wait to introduce to you to my guest, Vivienne Mackinder.

• her evolution from painfully shy child to working on stage in front of thousands
• the importance of knowing the history of hair and fashion, because it all cycles
• “Don’t be so obsessed and focused that you miss the magic.”
• the impact of video teaching on the beauty business

Complete Transcript

Chris Baran 0:00
How great would it be to get up close and personal with the beauty industry heroes? We love and admire and to ask them how did you learn to do what you do? I’m Chris Baran, a hairstylist and educator for 40 plus years, and I’m inviting all our heroes to chat and share the secrets of their success.

Today’s guest is a teacher podcaster she’s a brilliant hairdressers session stylist, editorial stylist. She is the founder of hair designer tv.com which has been going for 20 years and it has over 2000 catch that 2000 online videos. She is also a film documentarian. She’s the documentary she’s produced is I’m not just a hairdresser, and also the legends which include Vidal Sassoon, Robert lameta, and Trevor Sorbie. She’s produced hair Heroes series with Anthony Mascolo, Antoinette benders Sally Brooks and many others. She is a catch the seventh time NAHA winner and Lifetime Achievement winner. She’s also the AI PP best commercial Look, she is intercoiffure icon and legendary award winner. She is the first female fashion director for intercoiffure in North America. She has been the Creative Director for Trevor Sorbie Creative Director for Vidal Sassoon at the age of 23. She if you want to describe her work, I would just say that it’s absolutely stunning. And she’s done over 1000 hair shows worldwide. She’s published internationally for the last 30 years. So let’s get into this week’s headcase. Vivienne Mackinder. Vivienne I, you know, I mean, let’s face it, I, we haven’t had the opportunity to go house to house partying together, but I’ve known you for the longest time and admired your work, etc. And right now I just like I feel almost today should be bowing or something. Because you’ve been like, you know, a hair hero to so many people me included. So I just wanted to say, on behalf of all the people watching listening, Vivian Mackinder, welcome to Headcases.

Vivienne Mackinder 2:30
Well, thank you so much for inviting me. And thank you for making this even possible so that so many of us can listen to some of the extraordinary guests that you’ve had. And it’s it’s been absolutely delightful. So thank you.

Chris Baran 2:43
Oh, you’re welcome. But you know, what’s interesting, is how you above probably anybody have has the biggest link. I mean, I talked to them, but you probably have the biggest link to most of the people that I’ve talked to, like, with Trevor and all the people that are on there. You know, Antoinette, all of those people, you’ve had connections with them. You know, I can’t I you know, I’m this humbled boy that grew up in new fashion beauty Sharpie and Humboldt, Saskatchewan, and, you know, seven chairs with green and blue flock wallpaper. And the grew from that to where I am today. But you you’ve had this amazing journey along the way. And I just find that absolutely astounding.

Vivienne Mackinder 3:30
I’m very lucky.

Chris Baran 3:32
So I want to throw this I don’t want I want to get into here, but I want to throw this out there first that I was pleasantly surprised, but yet not shocked. That was it before hair. You were a dancer.

Vivienne Mackinder 3:46
Yes, I was. Tell me about that. I was a painfully shy child. Oh, and my mother thought the only way to break me out of a shyness was to throw me on a stage. Did that work? It did ironically, because I was so shy. I would hide from everybody. And I had trauma. When I was four years old at school. I went to school my first day and my lovely little uniform. And I would not eat the steak and kidney dinner. Don’t blame me. Yeah, and so because I wouldn’t eat it. I was taken by the headmistress to her office, and she forced fed me. And it was terrifying. And when I went back home, I wasn’t the same little girl that had gone to school that day. It took a few days for my parents to figure out what the heck went on. And eventually it was revealed. So grandmother went up to the school with my mother with a rolling pin, I’m

Chris Baran 4:47
sure. I’m sure.

Vivienne Mackinder 4:50
I from that day forth. I was terrified of anyone who had authority terrified to put my hand up. I wanted to be invisible. Being a redhead, in a very tiny school where I was the only ginger girl there, you know, I already got a sense that life was not going to be easy, you know, I would be ridiculed a lot for having freckles and ginger hair. So mother’s decision to put me on the stage, because I was always dancing. I never walked anywhere, always danced everywhere. So it was very wise I’ve had. So within the stage, I found my, my, my joy.

Chris Baran 5:26
You know, it’s funny, because like, as you and I talked about, just before we got on, we’re talking about coaching and whatnot. And I find that I just I’m trying to get it into words that don’t have profanity in it to it in that, but I’m just so disgusted by people, that when you’re in a learning environment, and sensitive, that people would do that to somebody and use that kind of power overtop of them. And I, you know, I know that you’re in education now. And you’re, you’re amazing at what you do. But did that help you in any way to way you educate now?

Vivienne Mackinder 6:08
I think in many ways it did. Because even at Sassoon, when I would get myself into some trouble cutting hair way too short, you know, getting into a problem and then being terrified to actually ask for help. Because I was so scared that they’d look at me and think, Oh, God, this girl’s so dreadful. Let’s kick her out right now, she shouldn’t be here. So I would just dig myself into a larger hole. And I remember so many times, the teachers will come by and say you’ve ever check that. Or you should check the other side more and then just walk away. And I would go, what does that mean? I’ve just butchered this woman’s hair. And I don’t know what my exit strategy is. And, and I would go home so many times crying, saying to my mom, I just don’t have what it takes. I think I’m useless. And bear in mind when I was at Sassoon. I’d already done two years at the London College of Fashion and hair. So I had a very strong plastic background. But it Yes, I suppose it did. And I remember one time when I was at college, and my original goal was to go from dance into either film or theater, I wasn’t quite sure. And I realized that my career in dancing, I was performing professionally, you know, it’s a tough life being a dancer, and, and I had licenses to be away from school so I could perform. And I realized, okay, my dancing career at the age of 19 is over. And so I was always fascinated when the sets would change on stage. I thought, well, maybe I can be a painter. And then I thought, well, you can’t paint you’re not really good at that. And then I thought, well, I’ll be a makeup artist because I’m always fascinated when the characters would come off of the street. And then then you’d see them get into costume and wigs and makeup and so on, and how they would step into character and step into their story. And a moment ago, it was just Fred right. And now here’s this wonderful character. And it was fascinating what costuming and makeup and wigs would do to change your whole presence. And I thought that’s genius. So I thought well, I’ll become a makeup artist. And a friend of mine, new Chrissy Beveridge, who was at that time, the head of the BBC, hair and makeup department. And so she said, Listen, if you’re going to go anywhere to get like, a career in makeup or hair, go to the London College of Fashion because they the BBC was very keen to poor people from there, because they have an incredible program in the history of the hair. We did wig making, we did so many different broad things. And so I thought, okay, Jolly good. I’ll go to the London College of Fashion and do that. And I always remember towards the end of the program, this lady that had a terribly posh voice, she said, Anyone going to the BBC will never succeed with their marriage. Oh, just got engaged. And I thought, oh, gosh, you go to the BBC, and your marriages collapse, which now I understand the why behind it. And I thought, well, I better not do that because I I like the guy. I’m gonna get married.

Chris Baran 9:07
Excuse me. Sorry. So the you were you’re at the BBC now is that where the love for wigging making came from? Because I know that I’m kind of jump a little ahead here is that you were? Were I knew you from because I was you know, I was a Sorbie freak. You know, I didn’t know I didn’t know Trevor. I knew of him. I watched his work and everybody you know in Canada, you would always the magazine would you get to get hairdresser journal and his work was always on the cover somewhere in there. And I marveled at his work. And that’s where I think I first knew of you is you were working there. So did where it how did all the because you’ve, you’ve been across the gambit, you’ve Inaho you’ve won in? And I think an avant garde even think editorial. It’s You’ve been I mean, if there’s an award out there, you’ve won it. But your show you above all, above everybody show how diverse that your work is. So was the wig weight, the wig making? Did that really start with your Abba guard was did was there a separation in there and a divorce of that and pulled it back in? How did that work?

Vivienne Mackinder 10:22
No, actually, when I was at the circle, actually, just a backtrack. I never actually went to the BBC. I was terrified. Oh, I was absolutely terrified. And I went to Fidel Stearns and my college holiday. I didn’t believe in myself. And when the teachers were all belittling, it went back to that little four year old, that’s not good enough. Right

Chris Baran 10:42
now you have a steak and kidney pie again.

Vivienne Mackinder 10:46
Genetic irony of this when I was 40 years old, I read a book on eating according to your blood type. And guess what? What Vivian’s a natural vegetarian, a whole year old. You know, it’s not fascinating. So I didn’t go to the BBC, because I was terrified. I went as a student in my college holiday. And while I was there taking a month program, they came up to me and said, when you graduate, we want you to come and work for us. And I was like, Wow, that’s crazy. So I do. So I went through the whole training. So when I eventually kind of went through all that training and answers that you’d go through, which was ruling, I was asked to cut a wig for Videl, which was their pageboy that was going on a tour. So that was my first exposure to wigs because they knew I had a background in wig making. But it really took off when I went to work with Trevor, because Trevor would, I mean, one of the fun things about Trevor’s creativity was his ability to see through a shape and see something more. And so we’d go into the wig store. And I’ll be looking around to see if if this is just genius. And it’d be looking around again, that’s the one and I say, Well, what are you going to do with it? Oh, it’s not going to look anything like that. We’re going to do this and the other. And so I got to see the magic. And Sasoon as did it, too, because they couldn’t put those haircuts on the model. The fashion shows were wigs. And there were so many places where wigs were being worn. But when they’re worn, so Well, you don’t know it. So we’re. So that’s the genius of it. So Trevor was always say, you just got to make it look as though it’s growing out of their head. And also, in those humble days, even if we did have Avant gard, it wasn’t trees, in these trees and huge monuments on the head. It was small subtleties. It was small shapes. And he would always say, can you be clever with something small? Yeah. You know, big is big, you know, just by the scale of it. Does it make it brilliant? Not necessarily. And I actually think some of the most genius avant gard. So the tiniest ones, they’re the cleverness. So that’s where I kind of sort of, I didn’t fall in love with Riggs, but I enjoyed the fact that it would allow me to work with a gorgeous model, without them freaking out because I could plop that wig on. And and when people say, Oh, she just used a wig. Oh, you have no idea. It’s 10 times harder to work with a wig and all the the challenges that you go through to make it look real.

Chris Baran 13:07
Yeah, you know, that’s part of the you know, and we’re just gonna, this is just an opinion, it’s just mine doesn’t have to be anybody else’s. But that’s where I, I have an issue with some of the thought process going on nowadays that is saving, if you’re just putting the wig on, then that doesn’t mean you can cut hair, when I agree with you that if you can cut a ahead of you and cut a wig, or make a wig and cut it, because you don’t want to have that model freaking out. And you need the face. It all I don’t say it takes more because that’s not that’s not to be leveling the other side. But it takes a skill set that is is learned. That shows your talent, you know, so anybody for me, anybody that can when you can look at it and you go away. And you can’t tell to me that person’s genius. And that person’s skilled. Yeah. Yeah. So there’s there’s a link that I’m missing though in here is like, did you go to CES soons just out of school, and you went there just on a weekend did where are you in here? First you went to college, and then had a job outside and then went to Sassons How did that go?

Vivienne Mackinder 14:23
When I graduated from school. I went to the to the London College of Fashion to apply for the two year program. And my another very dear friend said to me Vivi darling, always work for the best of the best. That’s all she said. And I went to the college and I failed my interview. And they said that I didn’t have hands to be a hairdresser. And I came away thinking, I don’t know what headdresses hands look like. But obviously, these aren’t the hands that that do it. And so they also said that I needed to get more qualifications. So I went back and I took I went a bit more qualifications, academic qualifications. And so during that time, I also decided that I should learn how to be a secretary. So I went to secretarial school, and it was a nightmare. And I had my first job working for Warner Brothers. And I was I just had this little vision of being this like this little girl in her nice little suit, sitting with her legs crossed, doing shorthand, and just looking so fabulous in my little outfit, like something that was 50. This guy, you know, saying dictating this letter that’s going to some major celebrity because they always used to come down. So I used to do the shorthand. Okay, sir, thank you, we back in the moment for you to sign the paper. And the bloody hell up I just written I couldn’t understand. Kind of based on memory, I was just this is horrible. And then celebrities will come in, I’ll be like, oh think I meant to be a secretary. And the funny thing was when we were typing, it were high carbon paper, that was appropriate typewriter where you push the carriage along and you carry on typing. And we were had to pick up on speed it was to the William Tell Overture.

And then every mistake you make is that you can’t correct it. And so I failed typing. My shorthand was atrocious. And I said, this is not going to work. So anyway, and then the next year, I went back to the London College of Fashion again, I thought, You know what, you may have rejected me the first time, but I’m gonna go for it again. I think there’s that there was a little bit of fire in me. And I think, you know, being a ballerina, you learn relentless determination, you learn how to dance through pain, you learn that the show must go on. And you learn criticism very quickly, because you’re never ever, ever, ever, ever good enough. I was I won the All England championship. And I still wasn’t good enough. So you know, that was the background. So when I was told, you know, you’re you don’t have what it takes. I thought, well, you’re telling me to go and get more qualifications. I’ll do that. And I’ll be back. So the next time, I went there, and I got accepted, and then the college holidays, I went, as assumes. So I had two solid years of training when I actually joined Sassoon. So they went through my apprenticeship program, so that it was a three year program. And I think the following the following two years, was just trying to find myself because you, I didn’t I wasn’t a confident person. And then they found out that I had a dance background, and I just did I just presumed I just came from that. Yeah, trickle world. So when they said to me, we’re going to do a stage show. I thought, well, that’s really odd. Like, there’s no dancing and like, what would you do standing on the stage doing hair? Who would watch that? Right? So I my first hair show was at Wembley, it was a massive show that had huge screens. And there I am, only two years was Sassoons, and I’m now on a stage for them. And I thought, Well, I would just do a little choreography for them. I could do a little bit of makeup, but I wouldn’t be going on the stage for them. So in the beginning, I did some choreography, and I did some makeup. And then they said no, no, this girl’s gotta go on the stage. And I went on the stage and I thought, today’s the day I die, because I never opened my mouth on stage, I’d always danced. So the moment they brought the microphone to me, I thought, This is it. And I remember looking at the screen and my hand was shaking so much on the screen, you could see it jiggling up and down. And I thought I can’t cut the hair. Because my hand was stay still. And then the back of the stage dropped during the presentation and down in the in the in the bottom of the stage where the models and we did erte so we had the beautiful figures figures of earth a the beautiful letters, and the models were like draped around the Earth Day and then we would leave the stage and the erte characters would come up and perform. I was so terrified and the stage darkened, I almost it took ballet a skill not to fall into the pit and come up with a letter.

Chris Baran 19:24
You know, I have to say one thing I’m so glad you failed typing because I can’t imagine like think about we would have lost if you would have been successful at that. So but you know, I think anybody that’s out there that’s watching and listening to this can you know there’s that I’m just gonna speak for myself. I’m sensing a kinship that because I was miserably shy when I was a kid as well. And I never went to dance. You don’t want to see me dance. But the reality was is getting on stage is what set me free. But I sucked at it at the beginning I was, I don’t think I’ve ever been so I’ve repelled off the side of a mountain. And I was not as afraid as I was the first time I was on my onstage, my I just literally hid behind the I hid behind the model didn’t know what to say, I was cutting, for God’s sake, when I was cutting a trim, just because I knew that I could make that person happy. And it was just it was a miserable show. And what why? That was I was working for L’Oreal at the time why they ever hired me back, I’ll never know. But I understand Do you? Do you still to this day? Like, I’m not sure if the imposter syndrome is right? Did you ever get over that? That little girl that shy little girl where when you step on stage that you still wonder a little bit?

Vivienne Mackinder 20:55
I think when you care about anything in life, there should be a little tingle of adrenaline. And the question of can you outperform, perform what you just did? For myself, the biggest shift took place, because I would always feel nervous. And then I would just be like, put my hands in the hair. And that’s that’s safe territory. And you’re good to go. Did a lot of training, a lot of training to understand how to be effective. And being with Trapper for all of those years traveling the world with him and also risks as soon as traveling the world during all those events. I started to learn and travel would get quite nervous. And I’d always had to travel just before going on stage to say, Come on, Trevor, let’s go out there and have fun. And I started to think about that. But I think the most profound shift was when I said to myself one day, it’s not about me, it’s about the audience. And if I can just focus on and serving and giving and making sure that I’m adding value to them. Number one, it takes a huge mantle off of yourself. And you put your priorities in the right place. Because it’s, it’s hopefully I can do do or say or show something and Trevor used to say this tune, let’s give them a reason to want to go back to work tomorrow. And I think when you put it in that perspective, whether it’s a new guest that’s sitting in your chair, because I even have to this day a little, I wouldn’t call it anxiety, a little bit of like, I’m on my I’m on my tippy toes with a new guest experience because I want to make sure I don’t assume, and they don’t judge that I really take in who they are. And I meet them where they live. And I designed from that perspective. And sometimes, you know, when we’re looking at the world through our own filters, it can be distorted. And we can do what we think is nice, because we like it personally, not necessarily what is right for her. So I think it’s kind of growing up. And also pleased to say to myself, Trevor wouldn’t have me on the stage right now. Neither were Sassoons if they didn’t believe in me, and I you know, I worked with a giant Christopher Brooker. So I’m very, very fortunate. I stood by the side of Christopher Booker and Annie Humphries. And for those of you are saying, Who are these people, just Google, because they pioneered coloring techniques for Annie pioneered haircuts that were extraordinary. And you know, thing today, how difficult is it to come up with a completely new, fresh, original idea. And I got to witness them. And I got to travel around the world with them. I used to share a bedroom with Annie and she would wait up for me at night, she kept the light on until like home. I mean, how lucky am I? So I went from that. And luck is not really the right word, you know, our life’s a summation of the decisions that we make. And, you know, I have never been the most competent person, but from that lack of confidence, it’s just been a sort of a drive to say, Come on, do it a bit better. Do it a bit better, you know, raise your standards, how can you make that stronger and better, and so on and so forth. So that drive keeps your head in the right space because you don’t want limiting thoughts to limit what you can do and, and if you’re in a place where you’re giving and serving, whether it’s one guest on a photoshoot with a crew and the talent or whether it’s a fashion show, or whether it’s a hair show, or whatever the audience is the client is, you know, you’ve got to go out there with this sort of mindset of, I’ve got to impart I’ve got to give, I’ve got to empower I’ve got to help these people move from where they are. And if I can move in just 1% and and inspire them then I have added value to somebody else.

Chris Baran 24:57
Yeah, no, I’m I’m with you. 100% on that One. And I think it takes real maturity and growing up to figure that one out. Because I know and anything, even when I started, it had to be about. And I wasn’t consciously thinking me, it was the me thinking about me looking silly, which made me try to overperform. And and once you figure that out that you just have to be yourself and give. And once you do that, then that’s where the connection happens with the audience. And I think that’s brilliant. I want to go back, though, because you said something, that if people didn’t pick up on it right now, I want to hit it again. Because I never worked with any I never worked with Christopher, he wouldn’t he or she wouldn’t know me to see me. But they were idols of mine. And, and I remember going to many shows, and the thing that scares me VIV is losing our past and losing our history. And that’s part of reason why I want to do this as I you know, there’s so many people that inspired and motivated and, and paved ground for all of us that are out there right now. We have to, you know, we’ve got to make sure that we pay homage to them, and people know where this stuff comes from. Because yeah, how many times have we seen somebody that does a hair cut, and I hate this word, when people say it, but I invented this XYZ shape. And you’ll go, you didn’t invent that I, I know where that came from, you know. And I think that it’s, it’s, the more that we can bring our peers, our icons, the legends that we have in our business that gave us what we have now, the more that people will honor and honor those people. And I think that’s, it’s a shame when people don’t know, not only from your own country, but from other countries that they don’t know them.

Vivienne Mackinder 26:57
Well, I think it’s important to know the history of your your craft. One of the great things about going to the London College of Fashion, our textbook was called the first 5000 years of hairdressing. And we started with the Egyptians. And we work through the entire book. And it’s fascinating because you understand where fashion comes from, and you start to understand cycles. And I think, you know, it’s lovely to look at various decades. And when you work with fashion designers, they may say, well, it’s going to have a little bit of a cyber 70s sensibility that it has a little bit of Georgia and as a period of time, and you go okay, so you research Georgia and your research, you know, 70s, and all of a sudden you go, wow, by colliding these two concepts together, I’ve got something new. So also understanding social importance. And today, you know, it’s a harsh reality. But everything is so relaxed, and so dress down, which is lovely. And I think it’s wonderful that we can do that be casual, but we shouldn’t get so lazy. And we as as professionals, I think it’s really important to be an inspiration to every guest by dressing up. I just recently went to a restaurant, and I got dressed out with my husband, and the waitress came up to she said, Is this a special evening? Is it your birthday? I went no anniversary? No. To Oh, I said, we’re dressed up. Because we want to be dressed up and enjoy the evening. And it was like, why not dress up and feel fabulous? Have we forgotten what it feels like to be girly and dress up and put on so high heels and. And when everyone dresses down and throws their hair into some ponytail or whatever, it doesn’t get their yearning to go to their hairdresser, and stay well groomed and polished. And I like deconstruction. I like the I’m done. I get it. It’s been around for 25 years. It’s not new. And we have to be mindful of the difference between blacks and on and casual and sloppy and I don’t care like we used to dress up to get on an aeroplane. We used to dress up to go to London or we’re going into the city work get dressed up today. You see people it’s like, are you did you just roll out of bed and come onto this plane. And it’s okay. But when it becomes a mass, you know, you walk around and you go where’s the beautiful hair and the best place to watch this in an airport. Where is the gorgeous hair, you try and find gorgeous hair and then you say to yourself, hairdressers have done that they did at home in their bathroom. So I say we need to give ourselves a little bit of a slap and say we need to be role models. We need to be inspirational. I’m not going to be the dentist with broken teeth recommending that you wear a bridge right? I’m going to be that hair just that the looks amazing and they get dressed up. When I used to go into London to zooms I would lay out my outfit the night before and I would look and I would see what the hats going to be and so on and so forth. And when I used to go to the account To me, as the art director there, I would walk in and there will be people, there’ll be returned and so on. We couldn’t wait to see what you were wearing. I gave it its importance. I even when I rode my horse back in the UK, I would get dressed up for my teacher because I felt it showed respect. I think we need a bit of that back.

Chris Baran 30:21
I agree. I remember a great story that I heard. This was people that were doing a symposium in South Africa. And Roy Peters was there, and they had to go, I think I’m making up the cities from where they had to go. But being there I know that you had generally you started off in one city and you went in, I think they were starting off in one city. And then they were doing another show in Johannesburg. And they, they had to get get, I think, whatever it was a 530 flight in the morning or whatever. And everybody, everybody came down because he knew they were going to the hotel room, they’d have to check in and they’d get changed and and do their model calls, etc. And everybody came down, you know, they got their hat and they got their hat on sweats on ready to fall asleep on the plane and read a Ruskin came downstairs. And she was dressed to the nines. And everybody was looking at her and said, Why are you dressed up? He said, he said, she said, Why are you dressed up there? We’re going on a plane and going to a hotel room. And he said, she said you never know when a fan isn’t watching. Wow. There you go. There you go. That’s why that was another lady with great respect that I have for amazing stuff. So you mentioned horse, so so your horse riding as well, that you you still horse ride to this day?

Vivienne Mackinder 31:54
Yeah, I have a horse. Now he’s an Irish boy, because they miss Celtic cross I, when I stopped dancing, I had always had a love affair with horses. And so I, I have my first horse I think I owned her when she was when I was about 23. And yeah, and I fell in love with horses and that they’ve they’ve been predominantly in my, my life from that period on and, and I always wanted to have them and my mother was like, Oh, no darling, you’ll get very dirty. I kind of like that part. But yeah, I have a horse. And I think that’s critically important to have interests outside of your career. And ironically, I do dress ours, which is like dancing with horses. And they can dance to music with them. And it’s another discipline and in it, I love to be a student. And so it it’s grounding is balancing. And just be with an animal that they they have this fifth dimensional capacity, they can feel your your emotion, they can feel your thought almost before you’ve even thought of it. So how you show up, and how you let go. It taps into authenticity of this is who I am. And I and I think it’s so important as you climb the ladder to success, to keep your authenticity. Because sometimes, you know, we’ll have role models, and we want to be like that role model, but then we’ll only be a second rate version of them. And I think we need mentoring, we need guiding but at some point, and Trevor was wonderful like this. It’s like, Okay, it’s time to fly there. You know, it’s time to spread your wings. I’ve given you an incredible foundation. Now go and soar. And so horses are a wonderful way of just saying, okay, show it to me.

Chris Baran 33:48
Yeah, yeah. And you know, what a great lesson know from, you know, I mean, I love horses, I wrote them when I was a kid, nothing like what you do, but to me it was just get on and have a good time. And but the reality when you think about the metaphor that happens there between when you’re teaching somebody, and if you that same way that that horse has that connection with you, that if you can just try to connect just even if it’s nothing more than just eyesight, you’ll gain more knowledge about that person that you’re teaching, than you probably will with a, you know, 1000 words just by looking at them as a person and seeing that person. I think that you’ll you’ll gain respect and you know, and there’s this mutual respect, and all of a sudden barriers come down. You know, I saw that so many times when I and I’ve said this in a few other episodes, I’ll say it again, you know that? Pardon my language, but probably when I started off teaching, I was a bit of an asshole. Simply because the way that people taught was the way that I taught. And I thought that’s just the way you were supposed to teach and was being a hard nosed and, and you know, and calling people on their stuff because that’s what they did to me and I went, Oh, that’s what you do. And it wasn’t until I found that I could do more wrong that I that I could do good if I did it the other way around and got and stayed more positive. So I think your metaphor and your takeaways and I see it in you all the time because you have this, you have this connection with hair and with an audience that very few people have. Because it’s the ability just to give your talent away. And I see it in your work all the time, whether you’re doing avant garde or whether you’re doing beautiful, commercial, commercial, long hair, and I want to talk a little bit more about that. And your classes in just a second here. But you there’s so many people that push it way too far to the left. And it’s in it’s either looking a to done, B which is the other one that thing that I hate, which I call kitchen sink where I learned I learned three things or 10 things and I tried to fit it on one head of hair. And you have this unbelievable ability to make anything look absolutely beautiful, feminine and tasteful. And those are three hard things to put together.

Vivienne Mackinder 36:22
Well, Trevor taught me that more than anybody. He did, I was working on a collection for him in the US. And I was really struggling because I wasn’t didn’t have a team around me I was by myself and just trying so hard because I knew this collection was significant. And it was going to go around the US. And so I finished the collection. So all the pieces that were there. And Trevor flew in from London, and he came into the room and he was silent. And he just looked at the collection, or there’s beautiful piercing blue eyes. And he’s looked at me and he said, Vivian, there’s a fine line between creativity and bad taste. And so I immediately felt all this anxiety. I thought, I wonder which one I saw. I said, which one I’m like I needed to ask, right? You said bad taste. Oh, he did? Oh, yeah, it was right. I heard you tried way too hard, way too hard. You didn’t know when to stop. And, you know, it really hurt when he said that. But it was so good. Because it gave me a wake up that you don’t fall. So in love with your work can have some objectivity. Like now when I’m working on something, I will photo journal, the journey, I’ll take a shot, take a shot and pick it up. Because somewhere in there, if I’m deep in the trenches, looking at construction, and I’m not looking at shape, something extraordinary can be happening with the shape. And I missed it, because it was looking so close to my work. So now if I photogenic and I scroll back through, I go, Oh, sweet, I should have stopped three minutes before, that was actually a stronger silhouette than where I ended up. So self doubt can make you fiddle on fast. It’s not good enough makes you fiddle and fast. You’ve got to know when to stop. And he was so critical of that, like, you know, that fine line between creativity and bad taste. And you’ll see it quite often. But people are over trying. Yeah. So I think intuition is something we should listen to so much more. I think there’s power in photo journaling your work taking shots of it, looking at through another set of eyes, and seeing how that reads, and being really clear about where it is it going. And what should it be saying because it tells a story. And if you’re planning on it being sort of a, a rock and roll vibe, and all of a sudden it’s getting tighter and tighter and more and more polished. And she kind of departed from rock and roll and the relaxation kind of left and all she’s going off in this other direction. And you don’t realize it and then somebody like an art director or someone comes in and goes, that’s that’s so not working. Yeah. Loosen it up and you think, oh, yeah, 10 minutes ago, it was loose, and then it just got tighter. So a big part of what how I help people is through that process of Don’t Don’t be so obsessed and narrowly focused that you miss the magic. And this week, it was funny. I was watching one of the girls working with their hair. And I said just just fall in love with your mirror and I said I can see a difference. I can see a progress now she’s she’s doing editorial work in New York, and I’m helping her. So she started to webinar and I could see her studying into the mirror. And I said so how is that translating in the salon? She said I still struggle to look in the mirror. I said why? And she said, Well, I’m worried that the client is going to think I don’t know what I’m doing. And I said, I’m why else. And she said, I don’t want the client to see doubt in my eyes. What else? So we went down this sort of little conversation I said to her, I relate, because I do. I used to be terrified and looking in the mirror because I was scared the look and the clients I have What the hell are you doing Vivian? And that was just like, I wouldn’t have finished the hairstyle. Right. So I used to bury my head into my work. hardly ever use the mirror. And the mirrors are tall. Yeah, the mirror is so important. So I had to say, I own the mirror. So I said, say that right. And she had the mirror. As it say it strong. I am the mirror and then I still say it strong about I owe in the mirror. I should I guess you do. This New York clients intimidate you. They’re sitting in your chair. They chose to sit in your chair. Take command, right?

Chris Baran 40:55
Yes. This episode is sponsored by the salon associate accelerator from trainers playbook.com. Are you struggling with the time and cost of associate training? Do you feel like your salon is running you will get your associates on the floor, all with 90% Less time from you. So you can get back to building your business. Get them world class design, finishing color, and client care skills they’ll use every day for the rest of their career. While you focus on realizing your vision, go to trainers playbook.com and get the salon associate accelerator. And now back to the show. You know, and Joe, I want to talk a little bit more about because you you have helped so many people along and I said this in the opening that that we did is about that you’ve you actually started video teaching. I think before anybody that I know, I know I started in I think it was 2012. And you started giving away before that. That’s 20 years now what tell me about what started at what like there was some come along everybody’s doing shows there was no COVID That happened no need for video. But all of a sudden you went hey, video, what what was that magic spark for you? And what made you turn on a dime and and start doing video and video teaching?

Vivienne Mackinder 42:28
Well, I actually was 30 years ago, I thought I’m traveling all over the world shows Lights, Camera Action, and when the lights go down, how much of it’s retained? Really, what is the difference I’ve really made? And how can I help people everywhere. So back then the internet was wasn’t what it is. iPhone certainly wasn’t what it is. There was no YouTube Facebook, there was no MySpace, if anyone’s old enough to remember that there was none of that right? Phones were huge. They were expensive. And it was simply a phone. So I went off and I invested quite a lot of money back then and trying to create i It wasn’t an iPad, but it was like a tablet. And it would be hard to be sold the physical thing and everything will be loaded into it. And so I was working on all this different technology and nothing was working because it couldn’t take the capacity, and so on and so forth. And I kept having this vision of an iPad, which did not exist. And then two years before Steve Jobs created the iPad, I was looking at all these different things. And I kept thinking about this thing. So when the iPad came out was like, there it is, Yay, thank you

Chris Baran 43:38
in the universe, and there it was.

Vivienne Mackinder 43:39
There it was. So I so I abandoned the idea. And then years passed by and I could see that technology was upping a bit. But still phones were alpha and they weren’t taking a photograph. And so I started and it was it was painful to you no problems streaming all sorts of challenges. But I just thought that if I could, if I could deliver something that would help somebody from the comfort of their home, or the comfort of the salon, and they could be able to watch it and replay because when I was with Trevor, we used to shoot a video and it would be you know, either a real video tape, and then it went to like the DVDs. And it was it was somewhat limiting. And then I thought well, this is this is the future and one of my traits is I’m a futurist. So I’m always thinking about things which get me in a lot of trouble. When you’re so far ahead. Two arrows in the back, right? It’s gonna be a tough one. So it’s been one of the most painful things in my career. And the most rewarding and the most difficult because in the beginning nobody was online. And then slowly you know, a bit more people came online and when YouTube appeared it was like what people are doing this for free. Like I wouldn’t go into a salon cat hair every day for free. Why would I be giving away all of my knowledge for free, that doesn’t make sense to me. And I was going around doing big shows and stages. So I didn’t need that as a promo piece. And obviously, right now, you know, YouTube is a wonderful platform. And as long as you’ve got the discernment to know who to study from, because whether we know it consciously or not, human behavior is contagious. Yeah. And if you learn some tricks that are very strange, you learn four ways to cut a friend. And it’s a trick and a trick and a trick and a trick. And you look at it, I look at it and go, Well, every single one of those tricks is really good. But why, yeah, I could have just raised into that done and dusted in two seconds, meanwhile, is trick and tricking, I’m spinning my scissors and trick and trick and check. And it’s entertaining. But to someone who doesn’t know, they think now they’ve got to do all of those tricks on the guest, which is way too much work. So we have to have discernment, no entertainment, to know I’m doing this because I’m selling a widget. And not every widget out there is the best widget going, you know, this, this carving comb, and this and this, and this, and some of them are fantastic. So you’ve got to look beyond the motive as to why that person’s there. And there are brilliant people out there doing free content. And there’s a reason why they’re doing it because they want to direct you in their funnel somewhere else, I get that and I respect it. But it’s made, it’s made the consumer a much more savvy consumer. It’s also taken business out of our salons to where I can now color my hair at home, I now can know how I can do a long layered haircut, it’s really pretty simple to do that at home. So there’s certain things where because of that free model, we actually have lost some business to that. And we do gain business from it when it goes horribly wrong. But if we were rising at a faster rate, than what we’re seeing on YouTube, you’ve got to look at every decade has its features. And its benefits. Its high moments, its low modes, there’s, there’s seasons in business, we’ve got to accept, this is the season we’re in right now. And we better be more smart and more savvy than ever before, ie a client now will take a selfie of herself. And she knows her best angle. She knows more about her face and her face shape than most hairdressers. So what are we doing to elevate to elevate to be ahead of the client, a client now can research what what the formulation is of a product, she can then cross research and see if there’s this, that and the other. I mean, it’s just extraordinary. But a savvy woman who likes to research what she can find out. Now she sits in your chair, and she’s armed and dangerous. Yeah. And if you don’t know, if you can’t read the emotional aspect of that woman or you don’t know how to read a face shape, and you don’t need you don’t pay attention to body type. And you don’t pay attention to the essence of her femininity. Does she want to be soft and romantic? Does she want to be sexy? You know, Where does she live? Does she want to be androgynous and she you know, she’s the alpha female, right? So you’ve got to be able to read all of those things. And when you look at AI right now where you can, you know, put the hairstyle on your head and you can change the color of your hair. They’re, they’re cute and adorable. And they’re fun. But they’re not real. No, because I’m putting on some rug on my that’s not my rug. So, you know, we’ve got to up our game. And with AI coming so fast, we better up our game more and more and more. And if we don’t we every single hairdressers should be obsessed with learning. And the toughen up and get hard feedback. Today were way too polite. Oh, it was lovely. No, it’s nice. Damn, I blew. Oh, that was so pretty. No, it’s not. It’s not It’s so not right. It’s like no, raise your standard raise your standard. A one point average was okay. Yeah, average is not okay, today. Today, you better be outstanding to get a good result in business because the competition is massive. So if there’s one message, I’d say to everybody, raise your standard and be beyond the consumer. Otherwise, it’s like us going to a doctor, knowing more about our health and the doc Yeah.

Chris Baran 49:26
You said something really wise and there was about about YouTube and it is out there. But the one thing that that I see all the time is you can get backed, and you can get tidbits and you can get tricks as you call them. But you can’t ask questions. See, and that’s where I love the kind of programs that you do where people actually come to you. When they’re in need. And they say they’ve helped me I need I need something and that’s when you can Jimmy true learning happens when you you do something and then somebody gives Your feedback and I loved what you said about Trevor said, you know, there’s a fine line between creative and what was the word he used? Bad taste, you know, and I was shocked when because I know you. And so I know that what he said to you changed you, and was part of your journey to being the tasteful person that you are today. So, you know, and that’s one thing that I find is that right now, people will just look at something and duplicate it not understand why. And then it’s just, it’s just a trick that you, you repeat it, it’s not something that’s in your arsenal, and you truly understand. And I and I don’t get me wrong, I, we all have stuff that’s out there, and we give stuff away for free. But I think that, like you said, if people truly want to learn, they need to they need to get a mentor, they need to get a coach, they need to get somebody that will help them along, answer their questions, give them advice, you know, what’s my path? What’s my career path? And you and you do that with people? So the what if people want to go like because I’ve still you’re not done yet. I want to do a little bit more with you here. But if people want to know how do we get ahold of Vivian? And if I want to get involved with in your, in your TV series, and if I want to get involved in learning from you, where do I go?

Vivienne Mackinder 51:23
My websites, Vivian mckenzie.com. And that’s really the home base. My Instagram is the same. It’s Vivienne mackinder. So it’s just my name. And it’s spelt with an E n n e. I’m not a Viviane, I’m a yen. So

Chris Baran 51:41
Kinder not mackinder. Yeah,

Vivienne Mackinder 51:43
McIndoe. Yeah. So that’s, that’s where you can find me. And yeah, I you know, it’s just what we’re saying there about coaching, because anyone that will be coming to you, Chris, you could look at their world. And you could save them decades, because you’ve been through so much, you have so much experience so much wisdom, that when they invest in you, you are you’re you’re taking them in the fast lane. Because you can be can remove the obstacles and the challenges and the failures and the successes that kind of hold you back and take you forward and hold you back. So I think you’re right, you know, it’s wonderful to be observant of all the different platforms out there, you just have to have discernment. And if you waste so much time scrolling and scrolling and scrolling, you’re you’ll never know if you can do anything in life until you physically do it. So sprawling, that you may know about it, but you don’t know it until you do it. And I think that’s really important. So I’ve taken 20 years to refine the learning process. And I’ve failed forward clearly, to get to where I am now. And what’s fascinating is the success I’m seeing now I’ve never seen in my career, I’ve never seen people so quickly be transformed. Because it’s a hybrid of online lessons that they learn, they then show up for the live events that we do. So we’re recreating what they learned. And then in my photographic forums, they post their work. So when they put their work in the forums, I can then review their work. And then we take the next step to see how they’re representing themselves and social media. So that we have a, there’s really four steps. And so I want to make sure that as they’re upgrading the level of their work, their signature looks and device defining their style. And I want it to be their style, not my style, their style that they can replicate. When it actually goes out into the social media world, I want to make sure that their messaging is right. And they’re getting the clients that they want sitting in their chair. And it’s hugely different when you have intentionality about who you want to serve. And the type of work you want to do. And you put that out there and every shape or form by the way, you dress by your environment, by your your narrative behind your chair, to everything that goes out beyond your bricks and mortar into the social media world. It needs to be cohesive and one message and I was working with somebody who is she wanted to quit the industry. She was burnt out been in the business over 30 years, how she was really not enjoying life really. And I took her on this journey. So her work started to improve everything start to improve, improve, improve, improve, it’s just extraordinary. making more money in one day. I’m seeing her like I’m seeing you right now. And if someone’s in the background, I was like, That salon doesn’t fit the you that you’ve evolved into and there’s a dis fit, and she had a little corner in a barber shop. And it was like as much as your little corner in the barbershops. Lovely. There’s there’s an image here that’s out of it doesn’t match the high caliber of work that you’re producing now. So long story short, she ended up by buying taking out the space bar was gone cheap fix up the space. It’s now gorgeous. So she’s she’s brand correct. So then I went to the social media went, Oh dear, oh, no, no, no, no, no, let’s archive all of this, let’s start fresh, let’s get clear with our messaging, let’s make it as expensive as possible. She is happy, she is creative, she’s making more money, she’s doing work now that I would actually put in my portfolio. But she worked hard for it. No one gave it to her. She showed up and showed up and she failed. And she succeeded. And every roadblock that came her way, she took it as an opportunity to learn and I have to say, I’ve learned more from my failures than I’ve ever learned from my successes. So I you know, I am so proud of her, I couldn’t have done that in the in the if it was in the physical space, because I couldn’t have met her every single weekend. She’s on the West Coast. I’m on the east coast. So this, this has allowed me to step into people’s wild and gently, very gently take them on a journey 1% Change 1% Change Gentle, gentle, gentle and transport nation is at the end of the mindset wise schools. Joy, I mean, I want to see people creating beauty, I hate it, when a client is wearing a hairstyle that’s convenient with the hairdressers shedule. Or what they like wearing themselves, it really bothers me because that client would we have such an honor to Touch somebody and to go into the soul realm of design and and discover who they are and who they are not. And it’s not just putting a hairstyle on somebody it’s designing to face shape to the body type, to their personality, to their lifestyle to their age, there are so many considering factors there. It really is an emotional journey. Now, clearly, I could be like, oh, so what do you want today a little bit of a trim, same as usual? Well, that’s taking an order that’s not designing. So what I do is I take people from order takers through a really very detailed consultation. And it’s in my consultation that people are making more money, which is so funny, because I’m not a business person. If you showed me an Excel sheet, I go, I do every week when my bookkeeper shows up. But because they’re, they’re authentic, because they’ve elevated their skills, because they’re meeting the client where she lives. I’m having her just to say to me, I’ve been working with this client for 20 years, I gave her the consultation form, I had no idea what I was missing, and the clients are responding. And then they’re gonna they’re becoming raving fans. And that, to me is better than winning any award when I can help somebody at that level. I mean, that’s beautiful.

Chris Baran 57:46
Yeah, you know, the insights that I’m getting with you is, I’m going back to your narrative that you were talking about with your horse and connecting with the horse and how they know what you need, sometimes even before you need need it. And to me, that’s where I sense that you and your coaching ability that you have this innate ascent sense to say this is where you need to go just like those rains, we need to come over here. And you’re guiding those people into what they into the areas that they needed to wander to, but we’re always afraid to go into. And so that that, to me is so admirable, because that’s a special quality that most people can’t do, they will just give opinions, rather than true coaching, you know, and there’s a huge difference. So thank you for that.

Vivienne Mackinder 58:38
People welcome. And you know, it’s always wonderful when you can also create content that’s new I’m about to do, which never done this before, I’m gonna be working with this amazing photographer. And we’re going to be doing this photo shoot. And we’re going to be doing virtual sessions before the shoot so that everyone is prepared before they even meet us in New York. And they’re going to be part of the entire journey. And one of the days the photographer is actually going to work with the students phones. So he’s going to coach them with their phone before we even go into the real shoot. And so I want them to start training their eye to see the magic and to know how to use their device fully. And then the next day, we actually go in and we start taking the real deal photographs, but I want to take them on a journey. And I love that I know everybody before I meet them physically because we’ve already met in the virtual world. And I’m going to they’re going to be part of the whole photographic journey, the storyboard, they’re even going to be involved in the casting of the models. So they’re going to really feel what it’s like to produce a shoot at a really high level. So some have never ever done a photo shoot before. I bet most of them haven’t. And most of them don’t really know how to take a really really good photograph with their phone. So so even though it’s very exclusive and very tiny group I’m going to be pushed and already the photographer is teaching me things. And I’ve been around photographers my entire career, I have some of my worst experiences in poachers experience is where I wanted to quit hairdressing and sobbing in the bathroom. So I clearly know that and he said something really powerful when you said, you know, the abuser, Jim, as always remember, the client is the camera. Yeah. And it’s only got one I got one eye. And it doesn’t see things the same as two eyes. That’s why it doesn’t see debt. And that’s why so many hairstyles don’t work photographically because they’re looking so much with their naked eye, they haven’t understood has a camera is really reading that. And it’s a trained eye to do that. But again, there are no shortcuts to this, people are going to have to practice it and practice it. And this hour when I don’t have time my clients, it’s like, well, then at least get your plan to do a selfie Right? Or at least try something can you not stay back one night to book your best client, at the end of the day, bring in a makeup artist and see what leverage you can get from that one shot that you’ve taken the time don’t expect it to happen without putting the work in. I mean, it say, Hello, work, you’ve got to you’ve got to work, right? You’ve got to, you’ve got to get into that. You’ve got to put your work your work overalls on, there’s no shortcut to that. And I think unfortunately, today, people see the end result, they don’t see the hard work.

Chris Baran 1:01:29
I think they can jump into that. That’s VIV I’ve got this is, uh, this section is about it’s all rapid fire. You know, so I just asked you questions, and it’s just a throw some questions at you first thing that comes to your mind, one word, two words, whatever. And, and just whatever comes to the top of your brain. Okay, so what turns you on in the creative process?

Vivienne Mackinder 1:01:59
aboriginality.

Chris Baran 1:02:01
And what stifles it. Nothing, an event or show that you’ve loved one that you’ve done. That comes to your brain where it just one this is the one went, Wow, if I would ever went out that would have been the one

Vivienne Mackinder 1:02:17
I think I did a show within the grounds of the Vatican in Italy. And the stage was where they actually have the symphony. And it was huge. It actually we timed it. It took 30 seconds to walk from the the side the wings to the center of the stage. And I was representing the United States. And I was the first female fashion director for integral fear, which clearly was known as a boys club. So I was I walked out on that stage to I don’t know, maybe about 4000 people. And it was such a spectacular space. And I just stood there all alone on that stage. And I did my presentation. And before me and after me were these huge teams with all this theater and drama, and predominantly men, which is fine. And as I stepped out there, I thought wow. This is kind of cool. And I you know, I felt so tiny on that stage. But it was it was a beautiful show. I mean, it was magnificent. And I felt very honored to have represented the United States.

Chris Baran 1:03:24
And what and I’ll tell you that I wish I would have been there because that would have blown me away especially with your work. The thing in life that you dislike the most

Vivienne Mackinder 1:03:37
think when anyone does things with disrespect.

Chris Baran 1:03:41
And what do you love the most?

Vivienne Mackinder 1:03:45
Anything done in love?

Chris Baran 1:03:47
Most difficult time in your life

Vivienne Mackinder 1:03:52
building my website

Chris Baran 1:03:56
thing that you hate most. Let me rephrase that thing you dislike the most about our industry

Vivienne Mackinder 1:04:05
ego and the only willingness to learn

Chris Baran 1:04:12
which living person do you admire the most?

Vivienne Mackinder 1:04:15
Oh my living person? Oh gosh. Wow. That’s a tough one living person. I would say my husband

Chris Baran 1:04:24
a person you wish you could meet

Vivienne Mackinder 1:04:26
so they have to be alive. Anybody like to meet Jesus,

Chris Baran 1:04:33
I think that’ll be pretty cool. Pretty cool. Especially you know if you’re running short of wine something that people don’t know about you.

Vivienne Mackinder 1:04:45
But I am actually a quite a shy person.

Chris Baran 1:04:49
Oh, interesting. month off. You just give it to you. Where would you go you do?

Vivienne Mackinder 1:04:56
Oh gosh. Oh, that’s tough. Is it is it a month With my horse or is it

Chris Baran 1:05:02
anything you want?

Vivienne Mackinder 1:05:04
I think I probably go off somewhere exotic like Bali.

Chris Baran 1:05:08
What would you do there?

Vivienne Mackinder 1:05:09
Relax and have tons of spa treatments? Actually, I’ll probably be bored after a week but it sounds like a really lovely idea.

Chris Baran 1:05:18
What’s your what’s your greatest fear?

Vivienne Mackinder 1:05:22
I’m not a fan of heights.

Chris Baran 1:05:24
Oh, me either. Either favorite curse word.

Vivienne Mackinder 1:05:28
I don’t really have one. Actually. I couldn’t say it’s favorite. I mean, just recently, I just did a course and the word bullshit was used a lot when they were saying what why people make excuses and the lack of time lack of this and that were bought it came out a lot. I thought yeah, that’s pretty true, but I wouldn’t really say that. I noticed that it twice but

Chris Baran 1:05:51
I don’t really have one. favorite comfort food.

Vivienne Mackinder 1:05:55
Oh, gosh, I just given it up. Oh, I would say yes. To no now. Yeah. Well, I would like I love I love like, such as so simple as that. Some French bread is a lovely cheese. A nice glass of red wine. And yeah, it’s all going.

Chris Baran 1:06:15
Good. No, you can’t leave us hanging. Why is it all going?

Vivienne Mackinder 1:06:19
Tomorrow? I have an appointment with a surgeon and I have a hole in my heart. So I got to be a good girl. Oh.

Chris Baran 1:06:29
Well, we’re gonna say a few good words at bedtime tonight for you. If you could change one thing about yourself, what would it be?

Vivienne Mackinder 1:06:37
Oh, gosh. I don’t know. What would it be? Would it be? I don’t know. Taller, thinner. prettier. I don’t know. What would it be? More energy? No, I’ve got good energy. I don’t know. What would it be? swimsuit model figure?

Chris Baran 1:07:01
I’ll give you I’ll give you one. No hole in your heart. Yeah, really? Yeah. That’s a good one. Yeah. What What’s your most treasured possession?

Vivienne Mackinder 1:07:10
treasured possession? Oh, gosh, treasured possession? I do not my home. Actually. It’s lovely. That is a possession, isn’t it? I can’t call my husband a possession. I don’t own him. My horse. Yeah. I love my horse.

Chris Baran 1:07:26
Something in the industry that you haven’t done that you’d want to?

Vivienne Mackinder 1:07:32
I don’t think there’s anything. I think I’ve done.

Chris Baran 1:07:38
Tomorrow, you couldn’t do hair. What would you do?

Vivienne Mackinder 1:07:42
Probably working with horses. Yeah, probably horses.

Chris Baran 1:07:48
Nice. Okay, last thing. If you had one wish for industry, what would it be?

Vivienne Mackinder 1:07:56
become lifelong learners. And take it seriously. Don’t go to this as a job that is a hard one to have as a job. But if you view it as a career, it has endless possibilities and be willing to fail forward. Be willing to make mistakes and learn from from the greatest of the greatest. Raise your standards.

Chris Baran 1:08:23
Vivian, it has been a true honor. One day, I’ll sit and drink a glass of wine and watch you ride your horse. Yes, and it will be that so Vivian. You forgiving up your time and just Oh, thank you. so straightforward. Tell the people here and I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart to yours. I just want to say thank you.

Vivienne Mackinder 1:08:47
Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you