ep93 – Matt Swinney

He’s a well-rounded stylist, he cuts, he finishes, he colors. He is a four-time NAHA winner including Hairstylist of the Year. He is a two-time winner of BTC’s One Shot Award. He travels the world sharing his creativity at hair shows and professional beauty shoots. His work has been shown in countless publications, and recently Elle Magazine named him The Beauty Genius. Please welcome our next guest on Headcases: Matt Swinney.

• 7:07 – Matt’s hair journey
• 20:49 – Creativity and observations in the hair industry
• 32:25 – Client experience and industry challenges
• 52:12 – Career and personal growth
• 1:02:01 – Personal insights

Complete Transcript

Chris Baran 0:00
How great would it be to get up close and personal with the beauty industry heroes we love and admire and to ask them, How did you learn to do what you do? I’m Chris Baran, a hairstylist and educator for 40 plus years, and I’m inviting all our heroes to chat and share the secrets of their success. You so.

Well, welcome everybody to another episode of Headcases. And I have to tell you that today’s guest, in my opinion, is probably one of the countries. He’s the top and most well rounded hairdressers that and hairstylists that I know, you know, a lot of us do things where we specialize in one area. This guy is terrific. And he cuts, he styles, he’s he does the color. He’s a successful salon owner, and particularly of the evolution salon. That’s the name of the salon. I’ll give you a quick hint there. Now, he has been a four times NAHA winner, including hairstylist of the year. And I know because I presented him with that award, and we’re going to talk about that when we’re doing in there, and some of the feelings we had about that one. So it was really interesting. He’s been a two time winner behind the chair one shot awards. He travels the world, sharing his creativity and the genius that he has, because he brings the new ideas and trends to the shows, the shoots and the sessions that he teaches, huh and not bad for alliteration, there huh, shows, shoots, sessions like it. Okay. Moving on. He has been with manufacturers, and he’s been honored by working with them as Global Creative Director. And if you want to know why, it’s because, in my mind, I think he’s one of the most creative visionaries that there is that are out there right now. You can see it in the magazine work. There’s probably not a magazine that out there that hasn’t featured his work. And if that wasn’t enough, Elle Magazine, they named him. catch this one, The Beauty Genius. So let’s get into this week’s head case. Mr. Matt Swinney, Well, Matt, first of all, welcome to head cases. And as I always say, I think that to do what we do, you have to be a head case anyway, so that’s why we’ve named it that. But welcome, and it’s an absolute honor to have you on here.

Matt Swinney 2:18
It’s an honor for you to have me as well.

Chris Baran 2:22
I love it. You know, I was, we were just chatting about this earlier, and I I think that what I love about this, this as I get to talk to the people that I admire so much, and I don’t always get a chance to talk to them, and I think that the last time that we really were on stage together or met and chatted, actually, was was God about eight years ago, ish at and I’ll never forget that it was NAHA. I think it was 17. Is that 17? And you had just won hair stylist of the year, and Sam and I were on presenting that award, and it was your work. First of all, your work, as always, is just grand. It’s superior. I love it, and it was so deserving. But just so the audience can hear what I’m I remember what I said. I said to the audience, I said, just say thank you. And they went, what and I said, just say thank you. And they all went Thank you. And I said, today I want to say thank you, because I want to say we’re really excited that you guys all stayed. Because what, and this is I you and I chatted about this before, was what pisses me off about the way NAHA is now, first of all, don’t get me wrong. I love NAHA. I love what it stands for. I love what it does, but what that’s not what I hate about NAHA, but what I hate about the audience that comes to NAHA, the way it’s set up right now, is everybody comes just to watch their person win, and then they leave and and to me, that’s just so disrespectful. When you’ve got the most important award of the night, it’s just like going, it’d be like last night was the Emmys, and you got the most elaborate award, the best one there, and of half of the audience left. I think it’s just so disrespectful. And I don’t think that. I think that if people are going to go to that, if you’re listening, I’m chastising you right now in the nicest possible way, but then we’ll stay it to the end. Yeah, as

Matt Swinney 4:16
artists supporting artists, not or artists supporting some artists

Chris Baran 4:20
because I or just because your manufacturers there. I mean, let’s face it, we, you know, they, I always look at whose name is on the top of my check when I get it, and I support that, but I think it’s, it is the artist supporting the artist, and it’s got to be at the end. Just look at grant the person they’re due. You work your bloody ass off on that collection, and then this, I know for myself, the sweat that you go through and the worry and wanting to win, but you know it’s okay be down and all the stuff that we say, but it’s a really important deal,

Matt Swinney 4:51
yeah, and it’s not okay to lose,

Chris Baran 4:55
no, but thank you, because you know I was talking with I remember. Yeah, Maggie Mulhern was interviewing, I’m sure, as with you. She interviewed all these artists, etc, and she asked me this question. She says, Well, what do you say about when you go in? Do you go in? What are you going in? I said, Well, anybody that goes in and it says, Okay, if you lose, is a liar, yeah. Because if you’re not going in to win, you shouldn’t be entering anyway. I mean, if you can go in, but you know what give me? What your thoughts are like when you go into when you prep in that, what do you feel? I mean,

Matt Swinney 5:27
when I’m going through something like that, any any particular competition, or whatever my my goal is to win. My goal is to be the best. That doesn’t mean you can’t be a gracious loser and respect who wins. But if I’m not going in with the mindset of, like, well, if I don’t win, it’s okay. It’s not okay. Like, I My goal is to get out there and win, because I’m a competitive person. I come from an athletic background, so the competitive spirit is, you know, inside you all the time, yeah,

Chris Baran 5:58
and I take my hat off to that, because I think that that’s if you’re going to do something, just do it the best you could possibly do, you know. And if you lose, it’s not the end of your life, but just like in sports, you know, you might lose a game, but that’s not the end of the world. You just lost that game. Doesn’t mean you’re never going to compete again, you know, exactly, yeah,

Matt Swinney 6:18
so that you learn too, right? I mean, ultimately, like a loss isn’t a loss, if you learn something. And so I, believe me, I entered now, how many times and lost, you know? The first time I entered was 2012 and I lost, you know? And so you learn from those moments, if you really are paying attention,

Chris Baran 6:38
yeah, I say it on here all the time about Noha. I am the Susan Lucci of, of Noha. You know, I think I’ve entered almost every year since the inception in 1988 or 89 I think it was and and I’ve only won twice so but you know, if, to me, it’s, you know, I made it in the finals. And I keep working and I keep doing at it. I want to win every time, but you can’t. You know, you can’t win every time. Yeah. So tell me You said something interesting is about your about a football background, and you can see from my physique that I have that, that thing where I go when it comes to exercise, no pain, no pain, and no pain, no pain. So tell me what. Tell me your your background, your hair story. Like, how did you get into into hair?

Matt Swinney 7:28
Yeah, my parents were hair stylists, both of them, actually, and they owned a salon for 45 years together. And so I grew up in a hair salon. Like, I started working there when I was 12. I started working the front desk when I was 16 and I hair wasn’t necessarily what I thought I was going to do with my life. I definitely thought more along the lines I was going to go to college and do athletics and things of that nature, but I got injured, and so I couldn’t I couldn’t do the sport. I couldn’t play football anymore, and so it was kind of like a six month period of, you know, wandering, trying to figure out what I was going to do. I didn’t like school. School wasn’t my thing. I never felt like I was very good at school, but what I realized is that I just wasn’t good at the content of what school was providing. And so over a period of time, I was doing things that I shouldn’t. Probably looked in the mirror one day and said, like, you can’t live your life like this, because if you do, you’re in a fast track to going nowhere. And my parents gave me a good life, like I had a, you know, we’re middle class, like, but like, a nice upbringing. They were around they were around cool people. I got to go to hair shows with the NCAA when I was a kid, and I was, you know, got to do some cool things. And so I was like, well, maybe I’ll just go to hair school because I’m doing nothing. And so I went to Aveda. I signed up to go to school at Aveda, and I got there, and probably within the first three days, ultimately, I was like, This is great. I’m going to focus all my energy. I’m not just here to do something. I’m here because I want to be great at the craft that’s in front of me. And so from day one, you know, being there day three, I was 100% invested in, like, owning the craft of doing hair, I found it to be so interesting. I found the fabric of hair, in and of itself, to be very interesting. I loved color, I loved cut. I didn’t love styling, obviously, at first, because I don’t think anyone does, because it’s scary and it’s hard, and especially having never really styled hair, except for putting gel and slicking my hair back like I, you know, I had no know with all of what to do, but ultimately that became my favorite thing. So, yeah, you know, I believe in training your weakness. So I spent a lot of time training on the weakest part of what I was, which was styling. And ended up becoming my favorite.

Chris Baran 10:02
Love it. What do you I want to try to take you back, because you said it was something, was something specific, you said on the third day. Do you remember? Because I have to tell you that, that we have similarities in here, because my my mom was a hairdresser. Excuse me, I didn’t do well in school. C’s if I got a C that meant for that was champion for me. But so we have a lot of similarities in there about even when I went to school, I wasn’t I just went. I went to school because I wouldn’t get fired. But there was a catalyst for me. What was that catalyst for you? I’m curious to know what that was. On that third day we went, I’m in, yeah.

Matt Swinney 10:43
So my teacher actually showed us, yo some work from Yosh Toya. Oh, yeah. And I don’t know, to me, it was, like, so effortlessly beautiful. It wasn’t super wild. It wasn’t, but it had this era of innocence to it that, just for some on a, I don’t know why, just took me in and like, kind of like, grabbed, grabbed my interest, yeah, and I would love to do something like that. Yeah,

Chris Baran 11:18
that’s that’s really and that, I’ll bet you that part of that came from, and this is just a wild guess, just that athletic background. You know, want, want and want to be good at something you know, need to exceed, etc. I find that’s great. I love the fact that that that was the standout moment for me, for you, you know. And I just want to, if you can, you remember the Teach I would like to give people shout outs. If there was one educator that was out there, do you remember that educators name?

Matt Swinney 11:52
Yeah, I was Linden. Linden, Linden. Love it. Well,

Chris Baran 11:55
Linden, if you’re out there to thank you for doing that so you gave us Matt and and the talent that he has now. So, you know, I always think that it’s so much about the educator and and to me is that I don’t, I sometimes think that I’d like to find out what is your thoughts of of when you get into seeing the educators that are out there. Now, though, I mean, when I say I mean that from right when we started all the way along to now, what’s your thoughts on? Because I’ve heard some of the things you’ve talked about before, and I found it very interesting. Yeah, your view on education? Yeah,

Matt Swinney 12:32
I think it’s education, to me, is interesting because it used to, you know, I’ve been in this game for a long time. Um, not as long as you I’m catching you, though I will catch you, and so and so. I’ve seen a lot of different things throughout time, you know, I’ve seen the times when it was shock and awe education, and that was the goal. It was just to shock people and do things that would probably not be translated. You know, ultimately, behind the chair, it was just more inspiration. And then you slowly see this kind of evolution into these things, where it’s like, Okay, now we need to kind of because of the influencer introduction into education and things, it’s like, how are we going to help people behind the chair? How are we going to help grow their business? How are we going to make them feel more confident and ultimately validate the stylists that come watch you to teach, because that’s what you know, a lot of stylists are looking for through education, it’s validation for what they already do. And then now, though, it’s an interesting time, I think, because I feel like a lot of people are boxing themselves in now and then they’re they’re only able to teach one thing. And so being around a long time, I know, and you know, world reciprocal, and things evolve. And so if you can only teach one thing, if I can, if I could only bring to the table for you, Chris, a bob haircut, that is wonderful. That is great. And there’s a place for it, but you become less relevant because, well, now it’s long layers are stylish, or now pixie stylish, or now, you know, whatever the case may be. And so it’s an interesting time where I feel like, you know, the whole education landscape went from educator to influencer, and now it’s kind of going back over here to this influencer educator type situation, because you have to be well rounded in order to educate, and you have to educate on more than just hair. Now, in my opinion, like it’s, it’s my goal to help you understand how to get the best out of you every day, and not just what to do. And I think that’s really important. What I don’t know, what about you? What do you see in education happening?

Chris Baran 14:41
Well, you know, I’m with you on that one, and I really believe in this, in this cycle, and I, I know that, and we always talked about that generally. And let me back that up, we always said years back that is that a trend, and the cycle of a trend is six years. Two years in, two years hot, two years out, and they overlap. And we look at what’s happening with some of the things that you know, and this is, you know, out of Stephen Moody’s mouth, not necessarily mine, but I agree with him 100% I think our industry has shot itself in the foot, because, you know, all we’re doing is long hair root extensions, balayage, things, nothing. And don’t get me wrong, those are money makers, don’t I’m not. I’m not saying to throw them away. I’m saying that, if you look at I was just reading an article today that how the 90s are coming back in, with the Gallaghers from Oasis or are back, and you’re starting to see that, that that really mod moppy, Shaggy shape that the Oasis had, and people are terrified. I’m hoping I’m not being repetitive for the listener that’s out there, but I’ve been on this bandwagon that, you know, our industry has to change. If we want to earn money, we can earn money with the long hair, but we have to, as educators, we’ve got to make sure that we understand how to do the trends and things that are coming in before they hit. And I really believe that, you know. And let’s face it, you’re a cutter. You’re an amazing cutter, and but I’m sure when you go around, people want long hair and layers to validate what they do, but it’s because they don’t know how to do the other side. Yeah, you know. And I think I really predict that you’re going to see a strong swing swing over the next few years, where clients are started, going to be starting to look for it, and people are going to get caught with their pants down, proverbially, if they can’t cut short hair, they’re going to go to just somebody else.

Matt Swinney 16:35
Yeah. And it’s, I think it’s ultimately, too, you know, like I said, we’ve got fixated into cutting these things. So it’s like, I’m gonna show you how to cut a wolf cut. Yeah, let’s talk about the technique that it takes to cut a wolf cut, because that technique actually can translate to cutting a pixie or cutting exactly so. So when I talk about, you know, teaching and cutting like I am 100% technique based, I’m not here to teach you one haircut. I’m teaching you how to feel comfortable doing good all the haircuts.

Chris Baran 17:04
Well, I’m giving you a high five, right. There you go. That. I mean to me, that’s what it is. We have to Pete. We have to turn people into understanding how to cut, not just how to memorize haircuts. Because I, you know, let’s face it, when I, you know, when I first started, and I always say how to clarify this, when I started with SAS, I noticed sarcutter. I didn’t work for sassoons. I was a Sassoon freak, yeah, you know, and and they taught me everything about understanding hair and how to dissect. If I saw a picture or had an idea, I knew how to create, create it because I knew I understood hair cutting. I didn’t just memorize haircuts and and I think that’s the that’s kind of where I feel this is that, and why I’m so happy to hear that that’s there. And I think that that’s what educators need to do now. And I think that’s where I think. And let’s face it, I know some influencers that are out there, and they’re freaking awesome educators. Oh yeah, you know. And I’m not putting all of them in that, in that basket, but there’s some, there’s some unbelievable influencers out there who are great educators. And now I think it’s the time for the educators that we have to learn to go back and and pick up. What are they doing that you need to that you need to incorporate without

Matt Swinney 18:22
question, without question. I think a lot of educators, I don’t know if it was like fear of job or whatever it was, they just didn’t like influencers. And like a lot of my friends, are influencers, and I think there’s so much to learn, yeah, from from influencers. And so as as an industry that talks about being inclusive. I think that those two should join together and and influencers shouldn’t disrespect educators either, right? Like it should be. It should be a mutual beneficial relationship, because the educator can teach the influencer how to teach, and the influencer can teach the educator how to influence. And when you marry the two of those together, I think you get a really beneficial relationship, and you get very you get the highest amount of return for investment as an attendee to an event. When those things, when those two things,

Chris Baran 19:14
yeah, I’ll never forget, I was talking to Sean Godard and and I said to him, you know, your his work. I mean, he doesn’t take the shock and awe value to the nth degree. He just sneaks it in. And then his work is beautiful, and it’s styled and and he said, he said, out and outright, when I when I go to teach classes, I get better reception when I’m just teaching the things that are ordinary things that I can help them up their game with, that they already know how to do, rather than trying to teach them that something that’s so alien that scares the hell out of them.

Matt Swinney 19:52
Yeah, I watched this movie once. It was called In Search of greatness. It was on Delta, and it’s a sport, actually a sports movie. So they had people like Wayne Gretzky, Jerry Rice, you know, people who were like the best of their arena, if you will. And Wayne Gretzky made a statement in there. And I think this is kind of true for our industry today. He talked about how children today, like they train and train and train and train and train and train so much that when it comes time for the game. If that training doesn’t succeed for them, they lose the ability to be creative, which ultimately takes away the possibility of greatness. So we’re similar. We’re watch a video, a video, a video, a video, like we’re training our brain over and over and over and over. And so if the hair doesn’t, you know, if you don’t get that specific hair type in, or if you don’t get that specific haircut, you’re, you’re, you don’t have the capacity to be as creative as maybe stylists in the past. And so I do feel like there’s a lack of creativity happening within the industry, and there’s an uptick of repetitivity, if you will. You know,

Chris Baran 21:02
I love that word, yeah, repent. Why did you say that creativity as a,

Matt Swinney 21:09
yeah, there’s, there’s a loss of creativity, but an uptick of repetivity, repetivity.

Chris Baran 21:13
I love that, you know, and I think I’m gonna, I’m gonna use that and for it all the

Matt Swinney 21:19
time, but I think that it’s real, and I think that it’s, you know, I it’s not to be negative. I’m not slamming anyone I like. I don’t, you know, I think people, I think there’s a lot of talent in our industry, but when things don’t go the way they’re supposed to go, and you have to be creative, or if somebody comes in and says, do whatever you want, and you do the same thing you did on the last person you might have to question the idea of, like, Where does creativity sit, you know, inside me, and what am I doing to harness that creativity?

Chris Baran 21:48
Yeah, and, don’t you, here’s and I this is just an opinion, and we know what opinions are like. I always say I’m not the most creative and I’m not the smartest, but I’m really freaking observant. Yeah, and and I, and I like to read, and I, and I read this book that said that everybody is creative. You’re born creative. It’s just it can be either something, a school, an event, a thing will will affect you in a way that you don’t think that you’re creative anymore, but yet you actually are. Yeah, and I think it’s like a muscle that is if, if you’re not practicing creativity, it’s going to atrophy. But it doesn’t mean it’s not there, yeah, because it’s, that’s a brain thing. It’s a, it’s a brain conquering fear thing of just trying to do something that’s different at the risk of the outcome, fear of

Matt Swinney 22:45
failure. Yeah. I mean, ultimately, right? And there is no such thing as a creative failure, ultimately, but in the eyes of the judgment of others, you know, you might feel as they go, it’s a creative failure, but there is no failure in creativity. I mean, there it’s, it’s it’s like, you know, it’s like psychology in a way, right? You have to just allow yourself to be self validated, not validated outside of self. And I think even how we are coming to existence, how the human body comes into existence, is extremely creative. If you think about, you know, like you’re born actually out of creativity,

Chris Baran 23:24
yeah? Well, you’re born out of you got a pretty damn good shot. Because I don’t remember the exact number, but I think it’s in the millions of to hit, to get one of those firms to to an egg and to fertilize. And I think you already run, you, you won in the race already. Yeah? What are you waiting for?

Matt Swinney 23:41
Exactly, yeah, my kids and I talk about this all the time, because I feel like we might we like, I’m Italian, so we like, like, ancient Rome, and we talk about it all the time. And we talk about, like, art and things of that nature. And, you know, back in those days, like people would go to the exact same park. You said something that sparked this idea. They go to the exact same park or the exact same field or whatever, and they would watch for a month on how, simply, the sun hit a tree differently. So it’s that idea of observation that you’re talking about. I think that observation is ultimately like the building block for creativity. Yeah, because you’re observing life happening, you’re observing things all around you, and that is ultimately, in my opinion, on how you fuel creativity. And observing is not Instagram. Observing is not Tiktok like, that’s not observing. That’s the that’s the opposite you are. You are filling a void so that you don’t have to observe, whether it’s something inside your life, inside yourself, or just, you know, in general, you don’t necessarily understand how to observe as well, right? And I think that I do. I think observation is the core building block for creativity and. And that is something society as a whole, not just hairstylist, but society as a whole, lacks observation.

Chris Baran 25:06
Yeah, you know, we got to have more conversations because, you know, I’m up freaking notes. I’m just panning down in here, and there’s a couple I just want to bring up, just based on what you said. Firstly, I’m not Italian. I wish I was, but I’m half Ukrainian and a half German, so I see I’m a geranium. But the the point is, is that I love Italy, and I I’ve been there numerous times. I absolutely love it. And you talked about when in in Rome, when they would, I would get the just people that would, would, sorry, just glanced down. And it’s completely through my thought pattern here. But they would talk about how people would say, for instance, when they went to came to education, now we feel we have to teach everybody, but when it was when you went to a master to learn how to learn what they learned, they never really they never really taught you. They never said, here’s how you paint an apple. Yeah. They would say, here’s an apple. Paint it, yeah. And then they would say, Well, okay, tell me, what if it doesn’t look like an apple? What would have you done differently to make it look like an apple? So when it was always about taking them to a point of discovery, you know? And that’s where I think that that we sometimes fail as educators is we’re not just encourage them to make a mistake. So just listen, if you try this, I’m going to show you how to do this section, but don’t get caught up so caught up in your own fear that you just don’t go for it. And whether you’re cutting it on your aunt or your uncle or a mannequin or whatever you’re cutting it on, don’t be afraid of the mistake that because that they’re in is where all the discovery lies. So I just think that I love that metaphor that you talked about, about observation, and I think that observation just has to happen when you can just stare at something long enough. Good friend of mine, Benny Togni. I’m not sure if you know Benny, but in my mind, you got to research him. I mean, he’s probably just at the at the the last third of his career, as am I, but one of the most creative people I’ve ever met in my life, and and he said, When he says, when you’re when you’re looking at a magazine and you find something that you you don’t find attractive right away, or if it’s avant garde, and you and you don’t understand it, he said, don’t turn The page. Just look at it, and what do you see in it? What do you derive from it? How do you think it was done? You know, because there’s always something even don’t want to know how to do it, that if once you here’s the biggest thing I find, Matt, is people are only afraid of things that they can’t do. Yeah. And if you know how to do it, and you take the time to figure out how to do it. You’re no longer afraid. And you expand where you’re at. You expand your income, you expand your horizons of what you can do and ultimately, your success. So, and

Matt Swinney 28:12
I would challenge that people probably know how to do less now, yeah, than they used to do, so that just generates more fear amongst the stylists in the world, and pushes them more into just one place. All right? So it’s just, I do one thing. I i root mail to everyone, and that’s it. Yeah, you know, like, this is how we work, even if they don’t need it. This is what I do, because this is where I’m comfortable, versus, you know, understanding how to do, do more. It doesn’t mean that you have to be, you know, the best, that all of the things, but, but under the understanding of how to do things, I think ultimately, you know, is what’s most important. Yeah, I remember you said something about creativity. I remember the first Naha ever won was for avant garde, and I did this series where I, like, studied storms, and I wanted to create, you know, this visual of, like these storms happening, and so then I used colors that kind of mimic the storm. So like colors that would mimic Earth, colors that would mimic water, and colors that would mimic fires, and it was all pieces. And I wrapped these, you know, I used copper pipe. And then, yeah, you wrapped everything around and left around their whole body, yep. And then I, and then I researched, like, how wind creates certain storms, and then I had, like, ump million fans in those same patterns to create these movies. Wow. And, you know, it was something totally out there, like it was not nobody. I had not seen anything. I got no inspiration from any other hairstylist for that particular photo shoot. And I remember, I’m not going to say the name, but I was, I was going up against somebody who was very famous and had won avant garde many, many times, and I was sitting next to them. And. Was a young kid, and the guy, and the guy next to me, you know, I sit next to you, goes, Yeah, did you even do her to create that look like and as a young person, you know, entering these things like, it was very it was a moment that could have gone one or two ways, yeah, I could have never tried anything different again. Or I could have, you know, given the old and now I’m just going to do everything different. Now, you push me, because I know I don’t want to be like that. I would prefer to be this version of Matt as he grows up. And so, yeah, it was a very interesting, you know, experience on, you know, creativity and how people like you said, you see something you don’t understand. Look at it. Yeah, look at it. Don’t just turn your head to it.

Chris Baran 30:46
Yeah, yeah. And I think that our industry, and I’m going to speak more of times past and now, because I think our now, we tend to be more brothers and sisters in arms, regardless of what manufacturer you came from, or whatever, there used to be a whole separation. Well, that was that tribe. This is our tribe. We can’t, well, you can’t even sit together and have a conversation. And that really has changed where we’re all, you know, to me, that’s my part now is I figured that I want to make sure that I can help other people get out there, and that all of the young people that are out there know who the icons, the legends, etc, are, but I think that that it kind of tells me that that person that show me nameless was not really thinking clearly, because you could have dashed somebody’s dreams right There Exactly. And that’s just a shame, because, you know, it’s like, that old thing is that, is that if you just say to somebody, that’s awesome, you know, I mean, you’re working, I’m just so proud of what you’re doing, and it’s got, and you mean it that that helps to push that person. I was just doing a class this last weekend, and they were talking just about that. I was talking to a teacher at a school and and I just said, you know, let, let the kid make a mistake and then praise the hell out of them for making the mistake, instead of just beating them up, you know, because then that says, oh, okay, it’s okay to make a mistake, because we’ve spent so much time in our schools that that we all we did was got A teacher saying, No, that’s wrong, and then we just shut down. Yeah,

Matt Swinney 32:24
yeah, no, that’s very true. I agree with you. Mistakes are important, yeah,

Chris Baran 32:29
I want to take you back to because I know we talked about your parents and going to school, etc, or getting ready in there at 12 years old. I that’s when I never went into the salon to work. I just went in there to get some money for chips and gravy, as we always have in Canada. Yeah, and, but I was always in the salon. But I want to take you back, and I want to get a little bit more so for the people that are out there that don’t know what it’s like when you’re when you have parents that are in there, what, what was that like for you? What was it like for you, and what, what intrigued you and being in there?

Matt Swinney 32:59
Well, I got, you know, my parents owned, most people, most people don’t know what this is, but my parents owned a shampoo set Friday kind of hair salon. So that means all the ladies came in on Friday, got their hair, you know, styled for the week. And that was kind of, you know, their, what they what they did. And so what I learned, number one is, I like, I watched how amazing and effortlessly hair can be styled, right? I mean, because it’s really like, they’re doing some amazing things, whether it’s your taste or not, that’s outside of the point. The point is of what they do with hair and how they make that hair work and manipulate the fabric of hair is pretty spectacular, to say the least. And I guarantee nobody can, not shouldn’t say nobody, very few can do that today. And so it’s that part was very interesting from my parents. You know, even though they weren’t, let’s say it wasn’t the cool hips along. There was community. And that was, I learned a lot about community being in my parents salon, and because everyone that came in had like, there was respect, there was love, there was laughter, there was kindness. Yeah, the amount of care that went through that salon was was second to no salon, you know, I’ve ever seen. I like to consider my salon to be a community. There’s a lot of love that goes around, but I still don’t think that it fully compares to my parents Salon at that time, um, just because maybe a different time in the world, you know, whatever. But it was something that I learned really well, and then I also learned a lot about respect, because those old ladies that come in on Friday, they do, they do not take crap, no. And so I learned how to respect the client, how to respect the process of what we do, and also understand the effect that we have on. On on people’s lives, you know, every day and and what a difference just simply making somebody feel confident, yeah, how they look can do for their entire life, you know, or they’re weak, or, however you want to describe it.

Chris Baran 35:15
And I think you hit on a really good point there, Matt, and I’m not going to go. I always stay think, look at with all the I mean, if you want watching and listening right now, or if you if you’re never watching, but you’re listening, I’ve got more gray hair on my body now than than most people do. And I’m of that gray hair ilk that you’d think I was going in to get my roller set, however, but there was a time in that that when I want to talk about the community, what do you think if you were going to advise a kid now? That was right now. Kid, to me, is anybody under 50, but the if you’re going to advise somebody that’s getting into our business right now, about when you talked about the respect, what would you tell them that if you’re going to handle your clientele, what’s the differences that you would do, that maybe you do individually, that somebody else isn’t doing right now?

Matt Swinney 36:10
Oh, man, people are not going to like me when I say this, but they’re

Chris Baran 36:14
more I love controversy. They’re

Matt Swinney 36:16
more important than you. Yeah, like you need to get that through your head brother, like you are more replaceable than they are. Yeah, at the end of the day, like there’s a lot of people that do a lot of good hair in it, and you want to develop a relationship with those people so that you can continually build your book and continuously, you want that three month waiting list, and not just for five years. You want it for 25 years if you’re going to stand by in the chair. And so I honestly think that that’s one of the biggest things that’s lacking, is just that idea that, you know, the client is not as important, and we are actually more important. And that’s obviously social media right at the end of the day. It gives us this idea that, you know, it makes people more egocentric. I mean, I’m not saying that I am void of that either. You know, I think we’re all succumb to that at some point, because we’re human and we’re born to make mistakes. But the reality is, is that the client is more important than you, and that doesn’t mean there’s not bad clients that you shouldn’t fire. That’s not what I’m saying, not every client, but there are a lot of good ones out there, and I think you need to remember that. And I still try and treat my clients like that today. A lot of my clients don’t even really fully understand what I do outside of the salon, because I’m talking to them about that. My clients don’t know that I won four Nahas and one four BTCs. They don’t know I don’t that is not why they’re there. They are there because they just want to know, and they just want to BTC or whatever they did, and that’s what I’m focusing on, and that’s what I’m trying to, you know, uplift them.

Chris Baran 37:52
Yeah, I know. I It seems this is a standard information that’s out there right now that when, when, before social media, people found their hairdresser and hung on to them. They were like gold to them. But now that internet’s out there, if you’re doing balayage or a short hair or Bob or whatever you’re doing, there’s 1000 other people that are out there. They’re doing it every bit as good as you are, and they’re and they’re looking at, what is the price. What’s the salon experience like, you know? And so you don’t make that experience so individual, that and so positive and so refreshing that you they can’t wait to come back. Well, they’ll risk it. They’ll say, Well, you know, if, well, if Chris didn’t do that. But I saw Matt’s work, Matt’s work, because every good is good, I’m going to give Matt a go. And if Matt gives me a better experience, even if it is less, more or whatever. But if the positive experience that you’re having is better than what I had in the past, I want to go just to We The car dealers that we have when we went in there, I went into, bought my car at one place, went back. It was, it was a lease. I took it backhand to get another one. I didn’t like what they were training me, so I went to somebody else, and they give us the most amazing experience that was in there. And I said, Well, hell with that other guy. I’m gonna buy my car here. Yeah, same thing, same

Matt Swinney 39:13
thing, man. It’s, it’s true, it’s, it’s the client experience is so extremely important. And you are the client experience. Yes, there is, there is a salon experience, but you the stylist. Are their experience.

Chris Baran 39:30
I love it. The want to get I’m going to throw something else. And I hope this isn’t too big a curve. This episode is sponsored by the salon associate accelerator from trainersplaybook.com Are you struggling with the time and cost of associate training? Do you feel like your salon is running you we’ll get your associates on the floor, all with 90% less time from you so you can get back to building your business. Skills. Get them world class design, finishing, color and client care skills they’ll use every day for the rest of their career while you focus on realizing your vision. Go to trainers playbook.com, and get the salon associate accelerator. And now back to the show. What’s your because I know there’s this industry thing that’s out there right now that, and I’m basing this on what you said. You are the client experience. So what’s your thoughts when, when you have a staff member, and we know that that that person made that experience. What’s your there’s this, there’s this two, kind of a side point that you have out there, they’re the salon clients or the stylist clients. And and the owners are always going to say that they’re this, they’re my they’re the salons clients, the owner. There’s always this thing about it, if I want to leave or I want to do whatever, how do I make sure that I get my clients. So what’s your thoughts on that?

Matt Swinney 41:02
Well, now we’re going to get more controversial, Chris, so I believe that they are the stylist clients like Don’t, don’t, don’t. Get me wrong, if I send you, if I send one of my up and coming stylist, if I send them one of my clients for a root retouch, ultimately, that client’s probably not going to leave me, because they’ve been staying for 10 or 15 years. But when these young stylists work so hard to bring in clients, they are their clients. And so I’ve never hesitated to tell tell a client who called in if somebody left where they went. I’ve never hesitated to allow them to get the numbers of their clients, to call them and let them know. I’ve always been very, very gracious. I guess you want to say about that, because two things, number one, if you don’t want to work for me, please don’t be there, because I’m I’m good. Like, Well, someone else does. And two, I’m not going to try and keep you from not getting making a living. Like, we’ve never had non compete clauses. Like, if you want to go this long next door, go for it. You know. Yeah, I really believe in how we run our business, and we are, we are, we’re kind people, and we care about you. So I’m not, if you want to leave that, it’s okay,

Chris Baran 42:12
yeah. And I think when you take that on, you use the word gracious. That’s exactly the word that was coming to my mind, is that, if you’re just gracious about it, and it’s fine, I’ll give you the my story was when I wanted to start my business, and, you know, and everybody leaves, and everybody I always get, it’s interesting when people get so great and so, so what I’m looking for, they get hepped up about you’re my friend. Why you’re leaving? Number one, I would say they’re not your friends. You can be friendly and but I always said in business, I don’t want my people. I’ll be friendly with them, but they’re not necessarily my friends and and if I want you, right, and if I treat you well, you’ll want to stay for a good period of time, but everybody’s going to leave. But I remember when I left my salon, Saskatchewan. Saskatchewan, Bill Ross was the owner. I still love that man to this day, and I’ve told this story a few times, so I’ll keep it tight. But when I left, I was I was booked up three months in advance, and he just went, here’s your book. I’ve told all your clients where you are, and, and, and to this day, I still respect the man for what he did, and I tried to take on that same aspect as you do. I you know, if you want to go fine, then I’d sooner that you were happy somewhere else. So

Matt Swinney 43:35
yeah, and I think, like if you go to open a business, your goal is to help people grow, and sometimes their growth doesn’t include you. Yeah, for whatever reason, you know, and but it might not include you. It doesn’t mean I don’t want you to grow anymore. Yeah, you know, like I want, I still want you to succeed. There was a reason that I hired you in the first place. So I’ve never understood that. I’ve never understood not, you know, wanting them to succeed outside of your business, what

Chris Baran 44:04
do you look for when, when you’re when you’re hiring somebody, and somebody comes to you and says, Hey, man, I want to work for you. Yeah. What do you look for? Well,

Matt Swinney 44:12
ultimately, it’s, it’s personality, like, at the end of the day, like hair. We can teach you like hair. We’ll get there. Like, I’m not worried about how good you are in Harris, like, we have a lot of, how would I say, individual personalities, yeah. Can you handle that, right? Like, like, we’re intense, yeah, you know. And, I mean, that’s, that’s kind of just how it is. And so can you, can you handle the intenseness. And then, you know also, if you need hand hand holding, like, that’s not going to work, because, yeah, I firmly believe in adult learning. And that goes back to the apple. Yeah, I’m going to show you the apple. Yeah. Now paint the apple. Yeah. I’m not very much. I’m not just going to do it for you, because we’ll, we’ll get there, and we’ll. Get there, we’ll get through it, and we’ll get you to understand it, but you have to go for it. So if you want to know if I’m doing a haircut, and you want to know something, I’m not going to say, Hey, come here. I’m doing this haircut, right? You got to walk over and say, What are you doing in that haircut? Because that is what’s going to make you successful, not me, forcing you, like a parent to come learn this or, like, you know, high school teacher or grade school teacher? No, it’s adult education, and that’s really how you succeed in our industry.

Chris Baran 45:31
How did you get into, like, tell them what’s the Okay, so you you were at your mom’s, your mom and dad’s salon, you transferred into your own okay. How did you get into the education, education side?

Matt Swinney 45:42
So there was a, there was a thing, I believe was the year 2000 or 99 it’s called America’s team. Next, there’s a guy named Lyle McCaig. I don’t know if you know that man, but yeah. So Lyle McCaig was kind of like he ran that whole deal. And so you would try out, and four people got chosen for that. And you would go teach at the ice shows, the ice shows. And so it was four shows, not product affiliated. And, yeah, and so I tried out for that. I think it was like 2000 people tried out. I was one of the four that got chosen. And from there on, I was super interested. My dad was president of the NCAA, oh, wow, yeah, for a long time. And so I used to travel and watch that side of the industry. And my dad put in a lot of work and did a lot of wonderful things and didn’t get paid, yeah. And so I said I would like to do those things, but I would like to monetize what I’m doing versus just, you know, volunteering what I’m doing, yeah. And so I chose that side of it, versus, you know, versus the, we’ll say, political side of of of our industry.

Chris Baran 46:58
Yeah. So in that, so you’ve been in, you’ve been educating, and you’ve traveled globally, you know, you’ve been their creative directors of companies before, and when it comes to your teaching, if you and let’s face it, I’m not it. It’s not rocket science to figure out when you’ve changed people’s lives. You’ve you’ve have fans. You’ve got people that you know, they’ll, they’ll, they’ll see you, and they’ll know that you’ve, you’ve obviously raised to a certain pinnacle. If with those fans, if they were to describe you as an educator, how would they describe you? Oh, I mean,

Matt Swinney 47:46
no, I think, I think it would the that statement would evolve, right? I think it’s evolved over the years without question. I think I used to be probably somebody who was trying to create a little bit of a shot, create a little bit of awe. I think then I, you know, ultimately, I think I evolved into somebody who, I think I had a moment of time throughout education where I was like talking at people. So I don’t know if they would have said I was a great educator. I think they would have maybe thought it was cool, or the position was cool, but I don’t know if they would have thought I was a great educator for a while. And I think if you were to ask people now, I think that that they would take home, you know that I’m somebody who genuinely cares about their success, and I think cares about about their growth outside of the salon as well as inside the salon. I care about, you know, I care, I care about your retirement. I care about your personal health. I care and I talk to all these things with purpose and with experience now, and so I think I’m coming. I mean, I’m 46 I feel like I’m finally becoming the educator that I always wanted to be but didn’t know how to. And that’s ultimately because I needed life experience as well. Yeah, I needed to, I needed to have an ego. To have an ego death. I needed to think I was this, to understand that I’m this, and so I get it. So I don’t, you know, as an educator, like I don’t, I don’t fall to anybody for where they’re at on their spectrum of of, of being an educator, but, but I think now people would would say that I’m authentic, you know, I think that would be, like, probably the keyword that you might get from a lot of people. I am authentically myself, and I don’t apologize for that to anyone anymore, where maybe in the past I would have because it wasn’t an authentic representation of myself.

Chris Baran 49:50
Yeah, that’s first of all. Thank you for that, and I You’re not alone in that one. I think that everybody that’s out there was something that they were, who they thought. They had to be, and then they kind of evolved into what they are. Because I think that everybody teaches like they were taught. And and I’m not saying anything bad against my teachers, but there was a hierarchy in the way that I was taught, and this was way back in the, what, early 70s. And if you were the student you were, you were considered lower, and the educator was considered higher, and they wouldn’t hang around with you. They wouldn’t necessarily would. They sometimes would talk down to you from that level, because that’s just the way that it was always done, and and I and that’s the way I taught. When I got away from there, I was at this group, and then I came away, and it was I taught that way, and, and people said that I was an asshole, you know, just from the way that I taught. And, and I think you have to learn some humility, and I think you have to learn about people’s feelings, etc. I mean, I think I was tough enough to get through it, and it made me who I am, and I’m proud of the fact that I’m honored of the people that treated me that way, because it got me to where I needed to be. That’s not how you can I don’t think that’s true teaching,

Matt Swinney 51:12
no, but it doesn’t allow you to, you know, it does allow you to handle when people are like that to you, and whether it be even a, you know, a client or another educator, or whatever, like it does build a strength, I think, inside of you that might be lacking a little bit more today than it was in the past, because people aren’t people are maybe a little bit kinder now, from the get go, than then, then Maybe in the times when, you know, we were younger and and I think it does give you a little bit of strength that is, you know, you can’t, can’t really replace that.

Chris Baran 51:51
Yeah, it’s just, to me, is that I think the kind of coaching that I got then was like the coach would give you on the playing field, you would say, you know, come on, if you’re not going to work that way, then here, you know, give me 10. Give me 20. Do wind sprints. Do this because they wanted to knock some of that stuff out of you. Yeah, in order so that you would just listen and, and I don’t say obey, but just here’s what I’m telling you to do. Just do it. Just do it. Yeah, that I was eternally grateful for that, because it really made me disciplined. And I I went from just haphazard fly and, and, and then it was discipline. Discipline, excuse me, discipline. That That part was really, really, really important to me, you

Matt Swinney 52:34
know. And I would tell you this, like a lot of what I talk about today from stage, is discipline because, because discipline in all facets of your life, not just cutting hair, but in literally all facets of your life, is what will kind of create confidence. And I think that there’s a lot of lack of, you know, discipline in the world, just in general, but also within our industry, for hair in general, for hair in general, like we lack the idea of discipline all probably because, you know, we’re not taught the same way. Teachers don’t teach the same way, and people don’t critique the same way either. You know, I remember, I was playing football. It was my senior high school. I had a game and I had 30 tackles, two interceptions and a fumble recovery for a touchdown. By rule, that’s almost 50% of the tackles that you know from the plays that the team ran, seven points and two interceptions. That is a, that is an all world game. Yeah, and I got in the car, I was super excited to tell you know, talk to my dad about this, right? Because my dad is my hero. Was my I mean, he’s my hero. He passed away, but he that’s okay. He was a wonderful man. We no stone left unturned between us. So we live, we die. And, yeah, he’s pretty awesome. So, but anyways, so I get done with this game, get in the car, and we’re talking, and I’m like, Man, can you believe that? He goes, Yeah. But you remember in the third quarter when that guy was scraping down the line and you missed the tackle? He goes, what happened there? You know, after a, literally an all world game, picks up the one tackle that I didn’t make and reminds me, you know, listen, stun, don’t think you’re that good, because you did miss that moment. Yeah, my dad was not an athlete. My dad was like a book guy, a very smart five foot, 850 pounds, little guy. But she sure didn’t know how to critique my athletic prowess, you know. Yeah,

Chris Baran 54:37
you know what? Some sometimes the stuff we need, you know, maybe sometimes, when you just you’re flying high, you need to be knocked down a little peg, just a little peg. Well, it’s

Matt Swinney 54:46
true, and I live with that. I think about that all the time, and it literally, yeah, no matter what I’m doing in my life. Like when I I talk about my kids with this, like, you cannot be seduced by success. And so many people get seduced. Their own success that ultimately is, I think, where we’re at, you know, today, with some of the things that are going on in our industry, and this whole idea that the client’s not the most important thing, or I don’t do great retouches, or, you know, I have 200,000 followers, or whatever the case may be, there’s this seduction of a small amount of success. Life is very long. Life is very variable. And so if you, if you were to put hashtags for, let’s say, what’s the average, you know, life’s expectancy of a male is what, like 70 something, right? We’ll say, we’ll say 78 just for that’s

Chris Baran 55:37
78 that is, I think 78 is what?

Matt Swinney 55:40
78 hashtags on there, you know, and you have success for one of those hashtags, yeah, not that much, you know. And so I say it to myself all the time. I’m like, that tackle you missed. And I could be, you know, really proud of how I’m old the yard, but I’d be like, hey, that tackle you missed, you know, yeah, just remind yourself,

Chris Baran 56:00
Did Did you ever have, you know, a lot of people talk about imposter syndrome. You know about, you know, because, let’s face it, you rich, you’ve reached a pretty high pinnacle in your career. Have you? Do you ever go through imposter syndrome? Do you think about, does it even enter your brain? Do you suffer from it? I mean,

Matt Swinney 56:19
I think that could ultimately be, you know, core of what hindered me through the first 716, 16 years or so, 17 years of my career, you know, is that imposter syndrome it’s like I don’t deserve this. You know, people gonna find out, people gonna find out I suck, but that’s because my words didn’t always match my actions. My actions match my words. So I am grounded in who I am as a now, now, yes, and that is, I think, extremely important. And, yeah, imposter syndrome is, is, is? It’s a real thing. I don’t think it’s fully understood either, Chris, I don’t know about how you feel about it, but I don’t think it’s fully understood by by people. And I don’t know if it ever fully goes away. I’m sure it can flash again on me, but I know that if I every day, I’m very disciplined in my actions, so I know that my words are matching them, and that allows me to feel confident in what I have to say. Yeah,

Chris Baran 57:36
yeah. Good on you. The the what was, you know, to me, I think it’s really important that we not only, let’s face it, we talk about the things that made us great, but sometimes the crap that goes on in our life toward it, what was there? What was is there any difficult times that you had to go through? And I say that not to get out in any other way, just to know that people listening or watching will know that if Matt went through that, that they could get through it. Yeah, was there some difficult times that you had to go through in your career?

Matt Swinney 58:06
I mean, Oh, I gotta say, like at the end of the day, you know, I’ve my difficulties probably have more been mental than actually, like difficulties in my in my career, you know, I did, I mean, I had a, yeah, no, I would say it’s all mental. It’s the mental difficulties of, basically, what we’ve been talking about, you know, this idea of like, I’m saying one thing I’m doing another, saying one thing I’m doing another, and even if I’m not recognizing it, that repetition ends up having a an adverse effect on my body, you know, on myself. And I think it does for anybody. You know, it was time I was, you know, I wasn’t healthy, right? I drank a lot, ate shitty food, didn’t exercise, like that’s a direct reflection of how I’m feeling about myself. And so, yeah, I think it’s more mental struggles. I think that I went through more so than anything else. Like my career has been, I mean, it’s been good, you know, I can’t lie like, I mean, I can’t, you know, it’s been, you know, of course, maybe you know, I left one job, went to another job, that job wasn’t what I was told it was going to be. I could cry about it. I could say it sucked. But ultimately, here I am now working with redkin and so, so I’m a full picture guy, you know, like and so, like this moment bad, good or indifferent creates this moment. And so I don’t know if anything is necessarily bad that way, career wise, I think it’s been a I’ve been blessed. I’ve had people care about me. I’ve had people that take care of me. I’ve had people that showed me things. I’ve had people that have told me I suck. I don’t know the whole thing, the whole game. That to me as a positive,

Chris Baran 1:00:01
yeah, yeah, see, and I think you hit the nail on the head right. There is that if you take it as a positive, and you take it as a growth, and I want to go back, and I want to talk to a bit more about because you just made another shift, and you came on board with red Can I want to talk about that, and I but I remember that if you, if you let a bad experience hit you, it’ll, it can ruin you. Yeah, I remember that I was always big into competition before and I and even before Naha, I would was always local competitions. And I, I was, I was always winning something. And I remember I was coaching some people. And, you know, look at me. And I got all puffy and and I’m saying, look it out. And I and I went back, and I was just competing with the same things I did all the time and the people that I coached one and I didn’t, and I wanted to go back home and get in my bed, you know, put my thumb in my mouth and go a penal position. But, you know, those are things that they’ll be positives if you just don’t let them wear you down. Yeah, and I think that’s, that’s, that’s a really important thing that you said there. I want to talk about what was that. I know I was so excited yet I know Darren, just for people may or may not know Darren or him, but he’s our, our new VP of education with redcoat. He just brought you on board. What was that like? What was it? How did that happen.

Matt Swinney 1:01:21
I mean, odd. It was a conversation, yeah, from an introduction that just led to, you know, me being part of the Red King family. And like, for me, you know, Sam has always been a mentor of mine. He’s always been so kind to me. I’ve known the redkin educators for a very long time, because we, you know, we both taught at Salon centric events, and I would see them, and we were conversive all the time, and got along really well. I think, you know, Redken is, is a heritage brand. It’s an iconic brand in the United States and globally. And I think it, it’s, for me, it’s kind of like, Whoa. That’s why I go back to like, everything that’s happened in my career has led me to this moment, you know, right now, right here. And so that’s why I can, I cannot do anything but say thank you to my past, yeah, for putting me into this place in the future, because it’s a dream come true for me, you know, and different from what I’ve ever done, in a way. I mean, I haven’t worked for a company as large, you know, as red kin and Royal, and so I find it to be just an extremely positive time in my life to learn new things and new part, new parts of the industry, you know, new, just because all manufacturers aren’t run the same as, you know. And so I get to learn a whole new segment of the industry. And to me, that’s extremely exciting at 46 to be, you know, refreshing, relearning, reinvigorating, recreating, rebranding, yeah, it’s just, it’s an honor to be on it like that. I would say it is an honor for me to have been trusted by Darren and the rest of the Redken family, to be brought on board, and then to work next to just an amazing group of artists, you know, good people who who also have ideals that are very similar. They from what my conversations is they do care about about stylists and about how they their potential and just living best right out outside of, just behind the chair your life. And that’s something that’s something that’s really important to

Chris Baran 1:03:41
me. Yeah, and I know that you’re, I think it’s, it’s brands are they’re not stupid. Yeah, they’re gonna, they’re, they’re gonna know, here’s somebody that can help our company, help the hairdresser. And that’s the reason why I was always drawn to the companies that I was always drawn to is simply, I wanted to be affiliated with people that would that didn’t see hairdressers as dumb. And I don’t think, I don’t think other manufacturers do now, yeah, but like back in the 60s, they did, and that was the leading charge that really helped me to make a pick on who I wanted to be a part of. And I, I’m just gonna say I’m super. When I heard the news that you were coming on board, I just went, Yes, that was, that was awesome sauce to me. So I know we’re gonna get to hang out more and more. And if it’s anything like these conversations we’re having right now, I’m gonna say, Tomorrow,

Matt Swinney 1:04:30
I’m gonna steal some, steal some of those hair tricks from you, though.

Chris Baran 1:04:34
Oh no, listen, anything I always say, you know, this is one thing that I’ve learned and and I can’t remember like I say, I’m not smart enough to think of it as my own, but I take on stuff that were meaningful, that people said to me and and I remember that somebody said to me once, if you take an idea and you hold on to it, it becomes all. Encompassing in your brain, and you can’t think of another idea. So when somebody gives you an idea, you’ve got to give that idea away. So like, when you do a photo shoot or you do something, why not tell somebody else what they did? If you learn how to do something that an avant garde piece, teach somebody else how to do it. I don’t want to do that anymore. Yeah, I already did it. I don’t want to do that again. And I think of people in our industry didn’t have that didn’t have a hold back attitude. And I know back when in Canada, when we first started off, people wouldn’t tell you the secrets of they would tell you what they were doing. They wouldn’t tell you any the secrets. But you know, that’s where they got lumped into that, doing that Bob over and over and over again, and then pretty soon they’re irrelevant. And Matt, I honestly want to say that I think you’re probably one of the most gracious people that are out there right now, in that you are willing to give and you willing to honor somebody else’s success as well as your own. And I love the fact that when you said, I don’t tell people that I won this that. And the other thing you know? Because, quite frankly, I remember that time when I came in third in the blue rims competition. I don’t think that they cared about that, whether I did it or not, but I just want to say it’s been an honor here. And I we come to that kind of time where we’re at, I’m going to, we’re going to go rapid fire here.

Matt Swinney 1:06:14
Yeah, let’s go. Thank you. By the way, that’s very Oh,

Chris Baran 1:06:17
you’re welcome. Listen, and you know, anything that you ever need. I’m always there for you, and I’m a phone call away. When we’re done here, I’ll give you my numbers, etc, and anything I can do for you, I’m there for you. Okay, rapid fire in your, in your, in your creative process. What turns you on nature, what stifles it?

Matt Swinney 1:06:40
Arguments.

Chris Baran 1:06:44
Thing in life that you love the most, espresso.

Matt Swinney 1:06:47
Oh,

Chris Baran 1:06:49
I love it. What you dislike the most fish, thing that you love most about our industry,

Matt Swinney 1:07:02
kindness.

Chris Baran 1:07:05
What you dislike most about our industry? Ego, person that you admire the most, my dad, your most prized possession,

Matt Swinney 1:07:19
my goal, or my

Chris Baran 1:07:22
Aussie doodle. Oh, a person you wish you could meet.

Matt Swinney 1:07:30
What else that

Chris Baran 1:07:34
something people don’t know about you?

Matt Swinney 1:07:39
I’m probably pretty boring than most people.

Chris Baran 1:07:44
I doubt that. A month off, where would you go? What would you do?

Matt Swinney 1:07:50
I would take my wife to the Amalfi coast. So beautiful

Chris Baran 1:08:00
thing that terrifies you,

Matt Swinney 1:08:07
a shark. Oh,

Chris Baran 1:08:10
I’ll tell you some go get together. I’ll tell you stories about that favorite curse word.

Unknown Speaker 1:08:20
Another one,

Chris Baran 1:08:22
duh. If anybody that was wasn’t watching this, you got to go back and watch it, because it was just like, in fact. Well, what? There’s another word. Your favorite comfort food,

Matt Swinney 1:08:36
probably reggaetoni and Baca sauce, something

Chris Baran 1:08:41
in the industry you haven’t done, but you want to,

Matt Swinney 1:08:47
I would like to teach in Asia, well, in, in in, specifically in Japan, nice, um,

Chris Baran 1:08:58
One do over in life. What would you do?

Matt Swinney 1:09:06
I mean, it’s kind of multiple. I wouldn’t lie. Ah,

Chris Baran 1:09:10
interesting. That’s really interesting. Not even a little No, not even a little white lie,

Matt Swinney 1:09:18
no, because then you can’t stand and stand where your feet are.

Chris Baran 1:09:22
Love it. Love it. Okay, tomorrow you couldn’t do hair, or you couldn’t do have anything to do with hair. What would you do? I’d be a chef. Oh, we’re gonna be good friends. Yeah, you can be my friend, because I love cooking.

Matt Swinney 1:09:38
Let’s go.

Chris Baran 1:09:39
I’ve got one more for you here. But if you, if people wanted to get a hold of you, and if they want to hire you to do something, or they want to have you to do a class on them, or whatever, how can I get a hold of you? You can

Matt Swinney 1:09:52
always DM me. Matt dot Swinney on Instagram, I answer them all,

Chris Baran 1:09:57
and that’s s, w, I m, n, e, y. Right, yep, yep, s, w,

Matt Swinney 1:10:00
I N, N, E, y, and that probably be, or they can get my email address, but you can give you can email me off the off my Instagram as well. So beautiful, and I’m pretty responsive.

Chris Baran 1:10:12
Oh, very good. Okay, so if you had one wish for industry, what would it be?

Matt Swinney 1:10:22
I think if I had one wish for our industry, ultimately, in the end, it would be that we realize, like I said earlier, like we don’t get caught up in ourselves. You know, I think the ego, no ego amigo. That would be my wish for our industry. And you know, I I’m not saying that people have huge egos all over our industry. That’s not what I’m saying. But I’m saying that I think sometimes we forget that, you know, we’re all in this together, and so the sooner we recognize that we’re all in this together, the sooner, you know, life will be harmonious. It’s like, yeah, it’s like, Costa Rica, Pura Vida. I mean, that’s what that means. You know, it’s like, the sooner we realize we’re in this together, the sooner like, we’ll have success. Yeah,

Chris Baran 1:11:13
yeah. It’s about coming from a place of abundance, isn’t it? Yeah? Because if you come from abundance as opposed to scarcity, then there’s enough. There’s enough for everybody. Yeah, exactly. So, Matt, I just want to, I just want to say that you’ve been, excuse me, so gracious with your time. And, I mean, I’ve always looked up and honored the work that you did, and it’s just been so wonderful having a chance to talk. And now I feel that I know you even more than a just a guy that I talked to on stage that we can, yeah, we can. We can have and share each other as a friend. That’s what’s really important to me. I just want to say thank you. It was pleasure having you on Ed cases.

Matt Swinney 1:11:56
Yeah, Chris, thank you so much for having me like thank you for everything you’ve done for our industry over the years, it’s an honor for me to be asked by you to be on this show. So no need to thank me. I thank you, sir. Well,

Chris Baran 1:12:08
that’s, that’s, it’s mutual, and we’ll be spending much more time together. I know that listen, and if you’re, if you’re listening right now on, on whatever format that you’re watching on. If you can just jump on and give us a give us a rating, make a comment, you know, particularly if you want more things like we’re doing right now, we’d love to have those comments from you, because that helps us to get more people that are following and listening. So in the meantime, everybody that’s out there, thank you. Is one more time, Matt, again. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.

Matt Swinney 1:12:38
Thank you so much.