ep128 John Palmieri

Show Notes

Today’s guest is a seasoned salon owner who recently celebrated a diamond milestone—25 years in the business. He now serves as the Director of Business and Leadership Development for the Salon 124 Group out of Atlanta, Georgia—an impressive company with over 200 team members, a cosmetology school, and more than $11 million in annual sales.

He’s a lifelong learner, a John Maxwell certified speaker and educator, and an outstanding coach. He also co-founded the industry-leading Shop Talk podcast and the 124Go Salon and Spa Business Academy, helping salon owners and professionals level up across the globe.

So let’s get into this week’s Headcase with the one and only John Palmieri!

4:18 Challenges in the Beauty Industry

12:26 Leadership and Influence

41:34 Accountability and Personal Development

47:39 Values and Culture in the Workplace

53:47 Mentorship and Coaching

Complete Transcript

Chris Baran 0:00
How great would it be to get up close and personal with the beauty industry heroes we love and admire and to ask them, How did you learn to do what you do? I’m Chris Baran, a hair stylist and educator for 40 plus years, and I’m inviting all our heroes to chat and share the secrets of their success. Hi, well, my friends, here we are again, chatting away one more time on head cases and from me to you, welcome. Today’s guest was a salon owner with a diamond anniversary that being 25 years in the business. He’s also the Director of Business and Leadership Development for the salon 124, group out of Atlanta, Georgia, and that company is a has multiple salons with over 200 team members a cosmetology school and over $11 million dollars in annual sales. He’s an eternal education junkie, a John Maxwell certified speaker educator and an amazing coach. He also co founded the industry leading shop top, Shop Talk podcast. And co founded 124 go Salon and Spa Business Academy. Now I have to say this, John has so much value to share, and whether you’re an owner or you’re just starting out in the industry, you don’t want to miss this candid, heartfelt talk on everything from leadership to establishing great working relationships within the salon. He’s a new bestie of mine. So let’s get into this week’s head case. Mr. John Palmieri, John, you know, we just met a couple of few months ago. We didn’t have no I know of you, and you may have heard of me before, whatever, but we just met a few months ago, but we’ve had a few great calls. And I just, you know, I I just really feel connected to you on the last you know from the times that we’ve had to spend together. So I just want to say, Welcome to head cases. Is great to have you on here.

John Palmieri 2:13
Thank you. I’m really excited to be part of your show today, so I’m excited to see what happens next. Because I don’t

Chris Baran 2:21
think, well, I know you’re you’re always doing, asking all the questions. So now you’re in that, you’re in the hot seat. So I can have permission, because I want to, I want to talk a little bit of mortal motorcycle porn.

John Palmieri 2:33
Listen, my favorite topic. Let’s go.

Chris Baran 2:36
Okay, I’m going to use a word here, yeah. And I want you to imagine it. Okay? 1971 Moto Guzzi, v7 tele Rosa, ah, let’s say

John Palmieri 2:52
if I have to go home now,

Chris Baran 2:55
if you want to have a cigarette, you know, anything like that, right now,

John Palmieri 2:59
two in the garage, right? You two of those? Not two of those. I have a 1991 sport, and I got a 2003 Rosa Corsa. Oh, my God.

Chris Baran 3:12
Well, just as this for the people that are listening and watching right now. So you know what I mean. Delio Rossi means the red frame and and it recently. I know if it was last year or this year, but it’s sold for nine that’s a 1971 and it sold an auction for $95,000 Wow. So now that we’ve got porn out of the way, yeah? Now we got that done, yeah, let’s segue into business from now. All right. We have to, yeah, if we have to, we’ll have, we’ll have a drink sometime and have more interesting conversations about motorcycles, etc, because I’ve got a, I’ve got a few that I could share, I’m sure, as you do as well. All right, perfect. But, you know, and the reason that I wanted to have you on here is because, I mean, let’s face it, I always feel if we can go right to the SMEs that are in the world, the subject matter experts, you know. And I know that, and I you know people already have heard your your intro, and it’s you really have a great way around business and great way around leadership. And I know you and I had a conversation about this a while back and and we really talked about it. And if I had to ask you, what is one of the biggest problems that you see in our industry right now?

John Palmieri 4:28
This may sound silly, but I think the biggest challenge we have right now is you spend way too much time trying to compare ourselves to others. You know, talk about something. I’ll just take the wind right out of your sails, right?

Chris Baran 4:44
Yeah, but you know what? I that’s true, isn’t it? I, you know, I know that. Then if you’re an owner that’s listening, or a stylist that’s listening, or even a student, I, you know, somehow, I think it’s a cultural thing, wouldn’t you? Would you agree that there’s a cultural thing that well, and maybe that’s just my opinion, but I it’s. Okay if you disagree, but I think that there’s always this comparison that we we have in our society, where we’re seen really as leaders or as winners, per se, if you’re doing things good and and they don’t seem to appreciate you if you’re doing if you’re making a mistake or doing thing wrong, when that actually just the part of learning right. But I really agree with you that it’s really about half of the times. If you’re comparing yourself on Instagram or whatever, it’s just like we we’re not looking at ourselves authentically. Can you talk to just like, what’s your what’s your take on that?

John Palmieri 5:34
Yeah, I think the challenge is, you know, whether we’re comparing ourselves to the person in the chair or the table next to us, right? Yeah, whether we’re comparing ourselves to the salon and spa down the street, whether we’re comparing ourselves, you know, I’m going to, I’m going to be silly if I can for a minute. You know, one of you know, we get these little charts to talk about, you know, the ratings for our podcast, right? And, you know, sometimes the podcast that we have will be ranked high, sometimes higher than yours. And then there are other days I look at it and I go, Oh, Chris’s podcast is ahead of ours. And I’m like, dang

Chris Baran 6:11
it. How did that happen? Right? Yeah, we’re all susceptible to the comparison.

John Palmieri 6:15
We’re talking about unhealth. So, you know, talk about unhealthy comparison. You know, where I’m spending all my time looking at where Chris Baran is right, what I should be doing, which is what, exactly what we are doing, which is, you know, instead of comparing ourselves, let’s work together. Let’s collaborate. Because this is an industry where we’ve got so much more in common than we don’t, right, yeah, and, you know, we’ve got kind of wrapped up in this competitive nature of that’s my customer. That’s my customer, or whatever silliness we have that we forget, that the real power is doing stuff like this, right? Yeah, being able to work with each other and collaborate.

Chris Baran 6:52
Yeah, I think that that, I agree, 100% can, and I think it’s perpetuated being a job in our industry. And I I’m not sure if we’re getting better or worse at it, but I can remember times even when we would travel on the road, if you were if as a salon, if you associated with your with yourself as a brand, then you would go to like minded people, people that use that brand when you’re you know, it’s not necessarily where you’re going to learn the most. They know generally what you are, and sometimes going to the and I’m and for those of you that are not watching right now, I’m going to use the proverbial air quotes, which means sarcasm, that that it’s sometimes that you’re going to learn more just from the people down the street, and if you can have friendly relation, I’m going to say friendly competitive relationships. You are businesses competing, but you can still be friendly. You can still share. You can still, you know, have meetings together, what’s working for you, what’s working for me and so on.

John Palmieri 7:57
You know, since when did winning have to be at the expense of somebody else losing. Losing. Yeah, right, yeah. You know, we can win every day, right? Whether it’s, you know, whether it’s working on the podcast, whether we’re working with coaching, whether working in the salon environment that I work in, you know, and the same thing with you, you know, why can’t we all win? I’m a big fan of a rising tide lifts all boats. And I know it’s an overused phrase, but I sincerely believe it right. How do I help you? What do you need? What can I do to make you better? Because I know just in that alone, I’m better.

Chris Baran 8:32
Yeah, I just it’s really interesting, you know? And I always say that every time I do one of these, and let’s face it, you have a podcast. I have a podcast doesn’t mean we’re competitors, but I just learned something for you, and I want to say thank you, and maybe you can even guide me if I’m being a little misrepresented by things that hit me and just right now, yeah, because often what we do, we talk about winning, we use sport analogies, right? And I know I do it. I mean, one of my basketball heroes was, you know, with Michael Jordan, and it was always about things that, you know, how he did those super human feats, but always at the expense of the other team losing. So I’m wondering, I’m just wondering, is that, is that a right thing to do? And that’s what I’m questioning myself on right now.

John Palmieri 9:19
Well, I think that we forget that, you know, what we do for a living is not a sport, it’s a craft, it’s an art, right? What we do isn’t warfare, right? I think some of us look at it that way, but it’s not. And if you look at all great artists over time, the artist that is the most influential now built his or her career and her art off of somebody who came before them. Yeah, right. You look at all the great artists, and it’s like, Who influenced you, who influenced you, who influenced you, right? And when you start looking at who influenced you and not. Who did I take advantage of, or who did I beat? Right? That I think that’s a different way to look at business, and at the risk of being grandiose, it’s a different way of looking at life, right?

Chris Baran 10:11
Yeah, and you know the word I just wrote down there, I just wrote down the word abundance. And it’s interesting how within our industry. And I’m not going to say everybody, because I don’t want to paint everybody with a brush, with the same brush, but you know, it’s funny how we have people in our industry that will come from a world of abundance, meaning there’s enough for everybody, and other people just come from scarcity, meaning, I don’t want to give away anything away. I don’t want to share any of my secrets, you know, and it’s, again, my sarcastic air quotes that people don’t want to share something. And I’ve talked about this in one other one, but it’s so meaningful to me. I just think it bears saying again, I can remember being at a hair show, avant garde hair show, and there was this young kid that came around and wanted to see, how did we make these pieces? And I brought him in, and I showed him every piece, and I showed him how they were made, and let him play with him and pick him up and and he said to me, this, which, which really hit me that, you know, I said I went to every other person that dividend did an avant garde presentation, and they wouldn’t even let me in the room. They said, everything that we do is a secret. Well, and I’ve always thought that, and it says I’m not smart enough to this. Think of this in my own but some teachers, some person that given me a lesson one time said, just said that, you know is, if you hold a secret dear to you or thought near to you, an idea near to you, you’ll get cluttered and the universe will not give you another idea. Yeah,

John Palmieri 11:45
no, I’m a firm believer in the same thing. I think one of the challenges we have when we don’t want to share, right? Because it’s proprietary or because it’s an original idea, first of all, no, it’s not right, yeah, most ideas come from inspiration from someplace, regardless of where, right? But one of the things that I acknowledge is you’re going to deliver what you’re going to deliver the way Chris Baran delivers it. And I am either going to find value or in it or not. I may do. I mean, let’s talk about podcasts, I’m going to I get a podcast, but my podcast, we talk about the same thing. We talk about the beauty industry, right? We maybe even have the same guests, but there are people that are going to be attracted to the way that you deliver the message, and they’re going to be people who are attracted to the way I deliver the message. So we get so caught up in the what, and we forget, it’s the how that makes the difference,

Chris Baran 12:44
right? Yeah, well, I want to just shift gears here, just a little bit, and because we’ve been talking about abundance and the ability to share, etc. But you know, and I’m going to put it this way, we’ve had some really infrared interesting conversations, and I I wondering if the the word that I’m going to bring up leadership is like, is leadership, and what our opinion of it is, there’s so many myths that are running around in our industry. Do we have is what we have of leadership? Is it a myth? Is it a buzzword? Is it misunderstanding? Because there’s so many people that talk about leadership and what I don’t mean from a subject matter expert like you, but I mean people in our industry that just use a blanket statement about a leader or leadership?

John Palmieri 13:42
Yeah, I think what’s your take? You know, I’m going to go down a rabbit hole, if it’s okay with you. Yeah, absolutely. You know, one of the things that I think when we talk about leadership is we think that means, how do I become a stronger boss? How do I become more authoritarian? How do I get people to listen to me more, right? And that’s not leadership. I’m not even quite sure what that is, but it’s not leadership. You know, one of the things, one of my favorite people to quote is John Maxwell, and he says, John Maxwell says that leadership is influence, right? And what I love about that quote is, it’s not about telling people what to do. It’s not about bossing them around. Is, how do I influence people to do what’s best for themselves? Hopefully, that turns into something that’s good for our company as well, right? Yeah, but that’s the real question we should be asking is, how do I become a more potent influencer, right? How do you know, having my team do what I tell them to do? I’m sorry, but that’s easy, right? And as long as I’m in the room, it’ll come true. The challenge happens is when you leave the room, right? When you no longer there to brow beat them, when you no longer. There to oversee them, micromanage them, give them a hard time, pick a thing, right? I want my influence to last well after I’ve left the room, yeah, yeah. And it’s interesting, because I think that that comes from a place of negativity as well, right? Yeah. And I’m not a big fan of leading through negativity,

Chris Baran 15:20
no. And neither am I. I don’t think none of us like to be led that way. So, right? I don’t know how any of us can figure that we’re going to get better action out of someone by doing the same thing, you know, and it’s like negativity and fear based influences. Is, you know, at least from what I understand about from Maslow and then how Hertzberg re studied, it sure was. He said that that fear is a motivator, but a very short motivator, very for a very short time, because you’re finally gonna go, Yeah, you know, like, you know, fuchsia, you Yeah, I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna move on and find a place where I feel wanted, and so on. So, yeah, so I love where you’re going, and I think that I know it can. And here’s another question, because I’m starting to question some of my beliefs on this as well. Is I hear people use the word subordinate? Is that positive? Is it negative? Is it a? It’s a, I mean, it’s a corporate term, yeah, but if you use that term, how does that? How would you feel about that?

John Palmieri 16:27
I think, I think we undervalue the importance of vocabulary, yeah, right, because we’ll use for an example, the difference between influence and leadership, right? Yeah, leadership brings all the connotations that, whether positive or negative, that we’ve brought to it through our lifetime. Right? And influence is a different animal. Right? Influences, generally speaking, when I think of influence, I think of positive things, right? Who are the people that have influenced me now? Have I’ve had, have I had negative influences in my life? Of course, I have, we all have, right, especially when you’re a teenager, right? Yet somewhere along the line, you decide to let those influences go and focus on the positive ones, right? You know? And so when I say something like subordinate, I mean, it just doesn’t even sound good coming out of my mouth, right? Yeah. And I think that if we’re going to collaborate, if we’re going to support each other, if all rising tide lifts all boats, then the word is mentor, right, yeah, how do I mentor others? Right? How do I support others, right? That’s I’d rather be your mentor than be then you be subordinate to me. Yeah, right, yeah. I’d rather be an influencer for you than someone who is oversees you, right? And I know it sounds real silly, I think at the at the surface level, it’s like, well, we’re getting into this language. It’s a little too PC and all that crap. No, it’s not what I’m talking about. What I’m talking about is being intentional with your language, right? Do I mean subordinate, or do I mean mentorship? Do I mean authoritative or do I mean influence? Right? Because that’s gonna have my reaction to you is gonna be completely different when I know that we’re using a different, different vocabulary.

Chris Baran 18:21
Yeah, I did. We had a podcast, and I’ll give you this, I think somebody probably should have on yours, as well as Celine Dupuis and and she was talking about how from a salon owner, leadership, role, and she wasn’t necessarily talking about leadership, but she talked about how important it was for her to make sure that not only was were people skill based what they were doing, but she really believes and spends a lot of time on on personal development as well. So it’s like, it’s, it’s a two fold thing, isn’t it? It’s, it’s really about how you can help to develop the people that are you’re working with personally, yeah, as well as just skill.

John Palmieri 19:20
Well, you know, interesting side story. Once upon a time, I had an employee that I worked with and with love and respect. He wasn’t the greatest hairdresser in the world, right? But he would make a connection, a personal connection, with each and every guest that came in the door, right? And one day, a client had come in and did a terrible job on a haircut. I mean, I’ll just be honest, right? And receptionist came over and said, John, so and so’s on the phone. She had a really bad experience. So and So cut her hair, you know? She wants to come back in. And I was like, Ah, so go over to the phone. I’m talking to the guest, and I’m like, I’m so sorry. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. And it was like, you know, when do you want to come in? You know, would you like me to fix your hair? Or, you know, get a couple of other people. She says, oh, no, I want to see the original stylist. And in my head, I’m like, But why he jacked up your hair and you’re calling me up to tell me how bad it is? And she goes, Yeah, but he’s just so nice and so much fun. Yeah, we think that the value is in the haircut or the massage or the facial. It, of course, is value there. I paid for it, but the true value is in the connection we make as people, right? It’s always interesting when I work with younger stylists and they’re struggling with retention or struggling with building a client base, right? And I always ask this question, and the interesting part is they always know the answer, yeah, like without fail. And I’ll say, is it a technical skill, or is it your people skills? And every single time, even if they’ve only been doing hair for six months, they’ll say, it’s my technical skills. I don’t know how to do a balayage. Or they’ll say, No, it’s my people skills. I really don’t know how to talk to people. I’m shy. They know. People know the answer to the question, is it my technical skills? Is it my people skills? And I don’t know where the survey is, but I think the last time I read a like survey about the relationship between technical skills and people skills, it’s 80% people, 20% technical.

Chris Baran 21:25
Yeah, right, yeah. It’s just like, when you go to your doctor, I’ve been to doctors before. They’ve got the same background, they have the same skills, but when they when they make me feel like I’m a human being that they really enjoy and they’re looking after right? And they care about me, then that’s they’ve got me for life, you know? And I’m Will, and that’s the interesting part. Is maybe it’s just because I’m Canadian. We don’t, you know, I know that we live in a litigious society in Canada and here, sure, but you know, like in Canada, you’re not going to get anything more than maybe a combine or a canoe, but, but I think that the last thing like Canadian, I don’t think that like to that to the point she didn’t want to sue, she didn’t want to see somebody else, she just didn’t like her hair, but wanted to go back to the same person I it’s Like when it was if I go to a doctor, and I this doctor that I absolutely love, that, you know, her name is Amy, and we call her by her first name, not Doctor Amy, it’s by Amy. We have a relationship. And if she makes a mistake on something, or doesn’t keep, you know, has to move an appointment. I don’t get pissed off. I just, I want Amy, yeah, you know, read, my wife is the same way she was going to this physical therapy place, but she wants the lady she wants. And if you can’t get somebody else, she won’t go, right, yeah. So it was really interesting, you know, because we’ve spent so much of our time thinking that we’ve got to keep training ourselves on technical and we do. I’m not saying that’s not true. The more you can have both, the better you are, but I really believe that it is really about the personal development that people have at the same time. Well,

John Palmieri 23:13
think what happens if you can put both of those together? Right? If you can ramp up your technical skills and be the best stylist in town, and you’ve got the people skills that make you highly likable, and people want to wait for you. That’s a magic recipe, right? And now here’s the struggle, right? So let’s get back to the leadership part. How do I influence people? Yeah, to get help them get there, yeah, right. How does that happen? Because that’s the question.

Chris Baran 23:44
The interesting part is, is like, you know, I just find it really interesting when, when it comes to leadership, that it It’s and we’re kind of back to square one, where we talked about boss, where we think, we think that everything is, is horizontal. I mean, we talk about it in leadership, where there’s a vertical leadership I’m above you, in that somebody else above me. And I don’t want to, you know what? I want people that are say, if you’re a stylist and you just started a place I want you to still think about leadership, because you’re still a leader as well. Right? What now can you talk to just a little bit about the difference between people that are vertical and think vertically in the influence that they have, versus the people that think more like you do, that is horizontal, that we’re all equal, but still being a leader in there. Can you just talk to that point?

John Palmieri 24:47
Well, I think, you know, there’s two different things happening there, if I may. There’s leadership and there’s management, two separate things, right? And management is the manager. Management of things, of processes, of systems, right? That is hierarchical. Right? Meaning as the COO of a company, you have management tasks that are specific to you, right? As the, I don’t know, the director of inventory, right, you’ve got management tasks that are specific to you. And the challenge is, is we mix up management with leadership, right? In fact, I often say that on my management days, excuse me, Mary, we changed that on my leadership days, because they’re distinctly different days. I get nothing done, yeah, literally nothing. And my leadership days is, as you said, horizontal, because I’m spending my time connecting with people. That’s not a task, right? It’s not something to check off my list. It’s not hierarchical, like I can only talk to these people. I can’t talk to those people, right? Well, if I’m leading people, it is not task oriented. It’s relationship building. And that’s not on a checklist. If I’m having management days that have something to do with my role in a company, right? Wherever I fit on the org chart, we’re gonna be real corporate, right? My org chart brings certain responsibilities that I must attend to. Leadership isn’t on that list like that. It’s not a check off this thing. Yeah. And I think we as owners, right of businesses, and we kind of raised to a certain level, we’re managing and leading at the same time, and we think they’re the same thing, and they’re not. They’re two completely separate tasks,

Chris Baran 26:38
yeah? And first of all, 100% agreed, you know, and I so let me, let me kind of shift from one to the other right now. So when, when, if, and I want people to think about this like, and I’m going to shift back to this because I want people that are stylists, or if you’re a student listening to this, can you first just define in the briefest sense, because I know that you’re certified speaker with John Maxwell, and John Maxwell’s his positions on leadership, and meaning that we people often think that that there’s a leader. Well, if you’re a leader, you have to have followers, right? Yep. Can you just speak to that on, on the from a management sense, if people need followers, and we know that there’s a very limited range on, on whether I want to follow you or not, or I’ve been forced to follow you, right? How? How does that? How would you first of all define it so people can get it quickly. And then how do you, how do you fit that in, in management, when you might have to be like, do there’s some things that you have to really hold people to accountability with? Yeah, I know that was a mouthful. Yeah, there’s

John Palmieri 27:54
a lot there. So I’m going to kind of dissect it, and we’ll come chop it up in pieces, right? Yeah. I think one of the things we have to have a mindset shift when it comes to leadership, and that we need more followers. What we actually need to do is create more leaders, right? So shifting that right off the bat, so as a leader within our company, my job is not to get people to follow me, right? My job is to create more leaders. In fact, that’s one of my roles in this company, is I create leadership development for our company. Why? Because I can all day long John’s the boss of this, or John’s the boss of that. We got to do what he tells us. Or I create other leaders. And as such, I’m a mentor, right? Yeah? If I’m creating more leaders, I’m creating more opportunity within our company for people to grow, right? And so as a leader, I’m not trying to create more followers, I’m trying to create more opportunity. I’m going to go off on a tangent, but play with me for a minute. Yeah, I will. One of the things that I think often comes up for salon and spa owners is this concept of making money, making a profit, right? And we’re almost afraid to say the word out loud, hey, the company made a profit this year, because the fear is our staff thinks we’re pulling the minivan up to the back of the building at the end of every night and shoveling in a boatload of cash, right? I never have a challenge shying away from profitability. And here’s the reason why profitability, to me, means opportunity. The more profitability that we have, the more leaders we can create, because we’ll have the money to pay them. The more profitability we have we have opportunity to build new locations. We have the opportunity to expand our education programs. To me, profitability equals opportunity. And why I bring that up is as a leader, creating more leaders is creating more opportunity, right? And that’s what I want to do. How do I provide more opportunity for the people here? That in itself, you create followers, not because you’re purposeful about it, but because you’ve created all these leaders along the way,

Chris Baran 30:13
right? And they want to follow they want to follow them because

John Palmieri 30:17
now you’re, you’re a person of value in their life. Yeah, that’s different. If I choose to follow you because you add value to my life, that’s a different dynamic, as opposed you have to because I have the title or I signed your check, right?

Chris Baran 30:38
I bet we have something in common, I have this love hate relationship. I hate paying for something that I’m not using. I hate working in a small, cramped box, yet I love working in a cool salon that impresses my clients, and I love the culture and synergy of a team while enjoying the freedom of being my own boss, you too. What if all that was available to you at the salon you rent from meet artist on go, a game changing way to rent salon space. With artist on go, you only pay for the time you’re behind the chair. You can choose a salon that fits your vibe, location and amenities with artist on go, you’re a part of a stylist community, not hustling alone. Plus you get to enjoy perks like clean towels and back bar supplies. Check out artist on go, built for stylists serious about their clients and growing their brand without the hassles of managing a space, here’s the kicker, you can save more than 50% on your rent to find out more. Go to B I T, dot L y slash, artist on go. CB, that’s B, I T, dot L y slash. Artist on go, CB, I’ve been guilty of this, sure, as a salon owner years and years and years back before I understood the dynamic, as you soap Lee put in this. But there’s so many bosses that figure I pay you, therefore you should be loyal to me when that actually has nothing to do it. They did a service, and you’re paying for that service just the same way as a plumber came in and fixed your house. You’d have to pay them. So you know the define a little bit, or give us a little bit more about I love where you’re going about the value of helping people to grow, versus you did a job. I took in the money, and I pay you a portion of that.

John Palmieri 32:48
So sure, and you saw that a bit again. Let’s kind of twist this a little bit. One of the things that we practice within our company is something called servant leadership. And yes, it’s something that John Maxwell teaches. I think servant leadership sometimes gets misdefined, because I think many people think that it means being a doormat, and that’s not the case. Accountability is a big part of leadership. If you’re going to be a good leader, you need to hold people accountable, because leadership is also about coaching. Coaching holds people accountable. It’s why you have a coach. Listen, I know how to cut hair, I know how to do a lot of things, but I look for coaches who can make me better. How do they make me better by holding me accountable to the things I said I was going to do or the process I was going to take. So a servant leader, what is good leadership looks like. Quick example. I’m going to talk fast because I want to make this story as short as I can. Walking through a salon, met one of our stylists. They said, Hey, John, I’m struggling. Can you do me some coaching? Sure, I’d love to went in the back room, sat down, looked at her numbers. She’s like, you know, I’m really struggling here, and I don’t know what to do. And my question is, well, elle was her name. Said, el. What are you looking for? She’s like, Well, I’m really looking to move out of my grandmother’s basement. I said, Excuse me. She goes, Well, I just moved here from California. I live in my grandmother’s basement. I’d really like to get out of the basement. Like, okay, well, what do you need to get out of the basement. She’s added $600 more a month. I said, Okay, so you need $300 a pay period, because we pay every two weeks. She said, Yes. I said, Well, what are you doing about it? She says, Well, I’ve been passing out referral cards. I’m trying to get new clients. I got about, you know, I’m doing about 50 to 60 clients a month, but it’s slow slogging, and I can’t seem to get there. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said, Well, what if we did this? What’s your average ticket? Our average ticket was $102 right? It’s pretty good. So what if we did this? What if we got your average ticket from 102 did the math real quick, and it had to be $126 what if we got your average ticket to $126 because if we do that. You’ll have $600 more a month. And she says, Well, how do I do that? I said, Well, you could do this, you could do this, you could do this, and you can do that. Your choice. Here’s four different options. Month and a half goes by two months walking through the building, Hey, John, have you seen my numbers? And you know, I didn’t. You know I neglected to. And I said, No, I didn’t. I said, How’s your average ticket? She goes. It’s $138 right? She doesn’t live in a grandmother space anymore. Servant leadership is finding out what your team wants, because when you help them get what they want, you get what you want. Because here’s the flip. The flip is, as an owner or a manager, Chris, we got to get your average ticket up. Come on, Chris, we got to get your average ticket up. Chris, come on, get your average ticket up. What do I have to do? You know what I’m going to write you up? You know what you’re not going to get a promotion. Your average ticket isn’t where it needs to be. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Talk about I don’t want to work for you. But if Chris comes to me and says, What are you looking for in your life? What are you trying to do? And somebody can say to me, I want to move out of my grandmother’s basement, and I help them get out of their grandmother’s basement. I’m a freaking genius. Yeah, right. That’s what true leadership looks like. Let me help you get what you want, and it’s not a transactional relationship, but intellectually, I know that if I help you get what you want, my company succeeds.

Chris Baran 36:33
You know what I absolutely love that you just did there. Like I say, I I love these podcasts. And everybody thinks, Well, Chris is doing this for the betterment of people, and that is true, but I do it because I learn so much every time that I’m with this. And there’s a there’s a part that I that I’m seeing, you know, when you when you drive, when you have a new place that you’re going to for your home or your work, and you drive there, and you know one way, and it’s a new city, and then all of a sudden you say, well, that road’s blocked, so I got to go somewhere else and find new landmarks, new things, right? And I find another way to get to the place I was going. And all of a sudden I’m going, Oh my God. Now I see where I am in this big Mecca chart that I’m at, this map where I’m at, and I understand more and and I think what you said is, I’ve always believed, believed that, you know, mentorship is hugely different than coaching. And again, just my opinion, no, because I think often mentorship like you, the example you just gave with grandma’s basement was you didn’t know what her answer was. No clue, but you had to give you had you didn’t know what the answer was. But like you said earlier, she did, she just didn’t know it. And all you had to do as that leader, that influence, that you had to give her paths to think about and ask her questions and then grab on your numbers hat that you know about so much and just say, look at it. What if you did x, y, z. So thank you, because you helped me shift locations and see even a bigger picture on the word mentorship.

John Palmieri 38:14
Yeah, so, because in the end, isn’t that what I remember I said this in the very beginning, but I’m a firm believer in it. A rising tide lifts all boats. How do I help you rise? Yeah, because if I’m surrounded by people who are all on the way up, right, does? It becomes infectious, right? And then those folks who are maybe falling behind a little bit right, when they see everybody else around them rising and not because they’re better, but because they’re just putting the time effort and energy in, it makes you want to put the time effort and energy in, because, you know it’s going to have a positive result.

Chris Baran 38:52
Yeah, true. True. And you know when I think that sometimes that rising tide, like your example is about just because they saw somebody that was and I’m going to use some words here that not be correct, so I hope everybody will forgive me for this failing or lacking or falling behind, or whatever the proper word is, and all of a sudden they see them doing it, and they go, the hell did you do? Well, I just had a I just had a talk with my influencer, my manager, my leader, my coach, my mentor. And then they’ll say, Well, if you did it for you, can they do it

Speaker 1 39:32
for me? Yeah, you see it

Chris Baran 39:35
back reasons,

John Palmieri 39:37
yep, that’s the abundance piece. That’s the part that creates influence. Yeah. And a side note, and sometimes we miss this is, I just created another leader, yeah, yeah, because that woman, elle, right, elle is now able. When somebody younger comes in and they’re struggling, elle got, gets to say, You know what worked for? Me once? Oh, I know it works for me. You know what? Somebody shared with me once, right? And don’t we strengthen our companies? Because, again, I’m not about creating followers. How do I create more leaders? And you become, you know, omnipresent. You’re everywhere, not because you are, but because you mentored and created that next batch of leaders who continue to lift up and grow your company.

Chris Baran 40:29
Wow, so much value that we’re getting here. I because I just wrote down a note here, and I wrote down vulnerable and I and I think that’s the difference sometimes between, you know that four letter word boss and influence and leader is, you know, people thought it was from the top, but there’s that girl l just became a leader, whether she knew it or not, she knew it or not, and, and, and, she gave somebody something said by saying, You know What I was exactly where you are vulnerability. Here’s the things that I learned and that could help you too. So whereas somebody that would would whatever they had, I’ve had hangups in my life where I figured that I had to meet, represented or seen as more powerful better than I was, and forgot about just being authentic and vulnerable, that by being vulnerable first, people will connect with you. I think anytime that I’ve seen great leaders, they’ve always shown their past and their vulnerability and their mistakes, right?

John Palmieri 41:38
Well, because now it makes us both human, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, makes us both human.

Chris Baran 41:45
How do you like? As we talked a little bit, we sort of glanced by the word accountability, yeah, and it’s, it’s an interesting topic, because often I know about you, but when years back, when somebody holding accountable was going to the principal’s office, it was getting called, Hey, can I talk to you for just a minute sure you know so what? What is your advice to people where, whether you’re the owner, whether you’re peer to peer in the salon or whatever, but you see something where you need to hold somebody accountable for something, and it sometimes can be really fearful for a lot of people, sure, yeah, what’s your advice for them? What do how do you tell them to how? What would be the approach you’d take?

John Palmieri 42:33
So the approach is, let’s use elegant as an example, right? So at the end of that conversation I had with L, we had a plan, right? A plan was to get from 102 to 100 and I think it was 20 624 I forgot, it’s been a while now, but she had to go from 102 220 $426, average ticket to get out of her grandmother’s basement. Now I’ll admit I did not check in with her, right? She she ended up grabbing me as I was walking through. I generally don’t coach our staff members, one on one. I manage our managers, right? And the managers do it. But that particular location was an interim place where we didn’t have a manager, so I was kind of filling in, right? Yeah, and shame on me for not following up with L, but if I was as good as I like to say I am, I would have followed up with L and said, l, I checked your numbers, right? Your average ticket goal was 138 was $124 you’re at 118 you’re not there yet, right? How can I help? Where are you stuck? How do I how do I support you, right? Yeah, that’s accountability. Because I said, Because I noticed right, first off, John’s watching, and not in a mean way, in a way of, how do I support you? How do you grow? And secondly, I’m holding you accountable to what you wanted to do, not what I wanted, right? Yeah, so accountability isn’t, hey, you’re not doing this. Let me punish you, right? Accountability is this is what you wanted. I’m here to help you. You’re not helping yourself. All I’m doing is holding up a mirror, Yep, yeah, right. And if you got a soul, you’re gonna go, I don’t like what I see. Yeah, right. Thanks, John. Hey, you know what? What advice? Because I’m stuck, what can you help me with? Because I’m stuck. Can we talk some more? Because I’m stuck. Sure love to right now, let’s pretend for a minute. Let’s go crazy. You hold up that mirror, and they don’t care, right? That’s a different conversation. Yeah, right? Where? If. Chris says, I want a 1972 El Dorado with the dual front disc in the front and the double shoe rear brake. And I’m going to save up some money. And I’m going to do this, and I check in with you six months later, and you still haven’t saved up that money either. A you really didn’t want that motorcycle, or two, you plane just don’t care. Yeah, yeah. Either way, you have to make a decision if you want that person in your company. Bingo. And I think that’s the challenge we have, is that we have people in our lives, not just our companies, that aren’t living up to their expectations for themselves. We continue to surround ourselves with them, and we’re too afraid to do anything about it. Yeah. And so we wait till we the emotion kicks in, till we get angry, till we get upset, we we our courage comes from our anger not from a place of my courage comes from. I want to help you, not because I’m mad at you. Yeah, that’s a different that’s a different accountability.

Chris Baran 46:15
Yeah, do you think that? And I’m going to take that and make it really specific meaning, I get angry as the owner, as the leader, because you’re not living up to what you said you wanted to do, right? And I know times in my life, Hi, my name is Chris, and I get angry, you know. But when you do come in from a place of anger. It often, I think it’s just because you waited, speaking for me, I waited too damn long. Waited too long, and it festered, and it probably showed that I was angry, but I was being passively aggressive, and then all of a sudden that person even is performing less right because of my actions as the leader, as opposed to, as opposed to just nipping in the bud right away, or, as I always love, like Sam says, Sam B always says, nip it in nip it in the butt. I’m gonna different kind of correction, but sure, we’ll go with that.

John Palmieri 47:20
Well, think about it for a minute. Who’s the anger about it’s about you. Yeah, right, yeah. How does anger and an emotion that’s about me, help me? Help you? The answer is, it doesn’t, right. So we call it in our company, we call it being direct, but kind Yeah, right, yeah. Hey, Chris, I noticed that you’re not quite hitting your average ticket goal. I see that you’re stuck. That’s pretty direct. There’s no sugar coating it there, right? But with kindness. How do I help you? What do you need for support? You know? How can I help you get to where you want to

Speaker 1 47:59
be? Yeah? Yeah, true, very, very, true. Yeah,

John Palmieri 48:04
different approach to leadership. Yeah,

Chris Baran 48:07
you know, because I think that’s and maybe this because I’m, I don’t know where the hell the time is going, but I just want to this sometimes. What do you think it is about? How important is values with the company? Because this is another word that gets passed around a lot. Yeah, a value, you know. And I don’t mean value is in the dollar sense. I mean value is, what is my personal values? And do my do my values align with the people that are around me? What’s your thoughts on that?

John Palmieri 48:42
So one of the things that we spend a lot of time on in our company, and when we work with other people, is to spend a lot of time talking about culture, right? And that’s another one of those coaching words that gets tossed around all over the place, right? Culture comes from two things, right? It comes from having a vision, right? Where are we going? And it comes from your values, because your values are how you do things. So vision is where we’re going, values is how we’re going to do it. You with me? Yep. Okay, absolutely. So for me, teamwork is one of our values in our company. So if I see Chris doing something that exemplifies teamwork, I’m going to walk up to Chris and say, Chris, I’ve loved the teamwork you just displayed. So and So needed a hand. You didn’t even wait to hop in. You just went in there and did it? Love that. That’s awesome teamwork. I’m proud of you. Thank you for doing that right. And the reverse happens, Chris, I got a challenge. What’s your challenge? John, you know, I saw this, I saw that. And then this is what happened. Teamwork is one of our core values. I don’t really think those actions exemplify teamwork, direct, but kind Yeah, right. And then Chris May. Say, You know what, you’re right? Yeah, that wasn’t good teamwork, and I’m sorry. Or, you know, as silly as this may sound, they give you a really hard time about it. If somebody gives me a really hard time about one of our values, then with kindness, they don’t belong here. Yeah, right. We have to agree, not that our values are all the same. I don’t want clones. We got 200 people in our company. I don’t want 200 people who are exactly the same. That’s boring, right? And all 200 people don’t have the same values, right? But our values have to align. In other words, teamwork is a value that’s important to us as a company. Now, if you say teamwork is stupid, I’m going to say, Chris, you don’t belong here. I’m sorry. But if you say, You know what, teamwork is not one of my values, but I can appreciate it, we’re good, yeah, right. And so if we’re going to create a culture, a culture is a group of people who agree that we’re all going in the same direction. We all want to go here, silliness. We’re going to Florida. Great. Are we going to Disney? Are we going to the beach? Two different things, definition, right? So if I want to go to the beach, I want a bus full of people who want to go to the beach. How are we going to get there? We’re going to do it through teamwork, purposefulness, family, all our core values, right? Clear, vision, aligned values. I didn’t say the same values. I just said that we can agree that these are our company values, whatever they are, and we agree that we can all live with those. If you look at the values and say, Nah, that’s not me. That’s okay. That’s not a judgment. It’s just You don’t belong here.

Chris Baran 51:52
Yeah? And it’s interesting. I’m going through some of this with different companies on creating a value, yeah, and different call, different things, but a code of honor things you did, not policies and procedures, but an honor code that you live by in your team. Is that, I think one of the biggest mistakes that has made, just like what you said about teamwork, is the definitely, you can say teamwork is there, and I could go, Well, you know, teamwork and my Well, the way I feel about teamwork is great because, I mean, I think the teamwork means that I can get to do what I want to do, and you get to do what you want to do, and that’s where we get we’re on a team, but I can do what I want to do, and you get to do what you want to do. And if the real meaning of it is that we were collaborative. We work together, we check out one another. We don’t leave any person behind at the end of the day, you’ve got a different definition to what your values are, right? And that’s where you’re going to end up with problems.

John Palmieri 52:54
Yeah, we actually have our six core values. We define each of them, so each core values has a definition teamwork, let’s use that as an example. I’ll say to somebody, what do you think about teamwork? Oh, yeah, whenever I ask Chris for help, he gives me a hand. That’s not teamwork. That’s called being polite. Teamwork is Chris did something for me before I asked him, yeah, before I even knew I needed his help, Chris jumped in and did it. That’s teamwork, yeah, and I know it sounds silly, but there’s a difference between teamwork and being polite. They’re two different things, and if we don’t share that definition up front, no one’s fault, but we’re Chris isn’t a good team player. Well, you never told them what you meant by teamwork, you know, yes. So you know, of course he’s gonna fail. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Baran 53:47
And to me that, and it all kind of a big spin, isn’t it? It’s all just about, how are you developing your team, or participating as a team? Right from a personal development view, as well as just giving out and barking out orders. I John, I I’m, I don’t know where the hell time goes, but I can understand why you’ve got 200 people working around you because of you and the other leadership team that you have, I can also understand, and I why when I see you at shows and you’re doing a class on your on leadership and everything that you know, why people are out there wanting to know and to get to touch you, because I think that’s a part of that’s part of being a true leader. So we, I think we have to have you back on and talk more about this, because I just think there’s been so much value that people got out of this. And I want to do that, but I’m going to jump into right now, into our kind of, our rapid fire. Love it, right? Let’s do it just first thing that comes to your brain, right off at you know, if. You’ve got choices, just the one that first one hits you. What turns you on in the creative process,

John Palmieri 55:09
looking back at it and going, I did that. Love it. What stifles creativity for you? Micromanagement, yeah. Love it.

Chris Baran 55:20
Things that you love in the life the most. I can’t say your Moto Guzzi.

John Palmieri 55:27
I’ll put them in order. My wife, ice cream, Moto guzies. There

Chris Baran 55:32
you go. And I apologize for saying Moto Guzzi instead of goozy. My bad. And the thing in life that you dislike the

Speaker 1 55:39
most, I negativity,

John Palmieri 55:46
when, when there’s negativity in the room. And somebody mentioned this to me the other day, I physically have to leave. And it’s interesting that it happens, I’ll actually physically leave the area, and I don’t even know I’m doing it, because it’s that abhorrent to Me, like I just I gotta go.

Chris Baran 56:02
Love it. What do you love most about our industry, the people and what do you dislike the most? I

John Palmieri 56:13
don’t want to spend too much time on this, because I know it’s rapid fire, but there is a there is this trend for influencers in our industry to be negative, because that negativity creates clicks, views and comments on Instagram, Facebook and Tiktok. So, you know, I feel about negativity to begin with, and now that some folks and I’m painting the world with a wide brush, I get it. But when we use negativity as a vehicle for expanding our reach, this makes me terribly uncomfortable and

Chris Baran 56:50
sad. Thank you. Person you admire the most

John Palmieri 56:55
who that list is long, you know I’m gonna say my mom,

Speaker 1 57:02
yeah, wise choice, yeah, yeah.

John Palmieri 57:05
And the second person is going to be my mother in law, who I adore,

Chris Baran 57:11
yeah. Well, you just got, I mean, I realize it wasn’t for brownie points, but you got some brownie points there.

John Palmieri 57:18
Well, neither my mom has passed, and my mother in law doesn’t listen to podcasts, so it doesn’t it’s not going to get me any brownie points.

Chris Baran 57:27
Give me your number. Give me your Give me her number, and I’ll forward it on just that clip your most prized possession,

John Palmieri 57:36
my wedding ring.

Chris Baran 57:38
Oh, nice person you wish you could meet, living or

John Palmieri 57:42
dead. Ooh, Ben Franklin,

Chris Baran 57:46
something people don’t know about you. Ooh,

John Palmieri 57:53
I don’t know an answer for that one,

Chris Baran 57:58
something that if you had a month off, where would you go? What would you

John Palmieri 58:05
do? I would go to Italy. I would take my wife. We would rent a motorcycle, and we would tour the countryside of it.

Chris Baran 58:15
Can I? Can I come along with you on that one? Absolutely Okay. Something that terrifies you.

John Palmieri 58:23
Ooh, this is twisted, getting sick and dying a slow, painful death.

Chris Baran 58:33
Oh, wow, that yeah, you got me on that one. Yeah, David, curse word,

John Palmieri 58:39
it’s the F bomb, but you got to say it with an Irish accent. Oh, I never heard something so musical as somebody with an Irish accent saying, fuck. It was just

Chris Baran 58:53
it was beautiful. Can you? Can you do your accent? No, we’ll tear it to his lad. Go fool yourself. See,

John Palmieri 59:03
it’s just beautiful. I don’t know what it is

Chris Baran 59:06
your favorite comfort food

John Palmieri 59:12
when I make my own tiramisu? Oh,

Chris Baran 59:16
something in the industry that you haven’t done but you want to,

John Palmieri 59:22
huh? I don’t think there’s, I don’t think there’s much on that list. I’ve been doing hair for 25 years. I owned a salon. I get to work within a great company. I work on now. We’ve got a podcast, we’ve got a coaching company. What’s left?

Chris Baran 59:37
There we go, Yeah, you’re good. You’re I’ll put one out there for you. You’re gonna host, you’re gonna host Naha, or you’re gonna host one of the, the favorite, oh, I know what is I’m gonna, I’m gonna get this, this aspiration for you. Okay, you’re gonna have your own TV program on leadership and how to. Help and save and let the people see the true meaning of what’s happening in our in our industry.

Speaker 1 1:00:05
Love it. Thank you.

Chris Baran 1:00:08
A do over one do over

John Palmieri 1:00:14
part, I was gonna say I didn’t something people don’t know about me. I didn’t get married till I was 47 so there’s that I think, I don’t think I would have done it sooner, because I wouldn’t have gotten to meet my wife sooner, but I don’t know that I would have been the same person,

Speaker 1 1:00:37
right? Yeah. So,

Chris Baran 1:00:39
yeah. So all good, yeah, okay, tomorrow, you couldn’t do hair. Tomorrow, you couldn’t do hair. Couldn’t have anything to do with our industry. What would you do? I want to build

John Palmieri 1:00:51
houses. Oh, I love it. I want to know how to swing a hammer and build a house from the ground up. Love it.

Chris Baran 1:00:58
Okay, I’ve got one more question. But just before, I ask you that question, if people want to get a hold of you and they want to have a class with you, they want to know advice or things that they can do, how do they get a hold of you? What would what would you tell them to do?

John Palmieri 1:01:13
Two things. One, you can reach out to us at 124, go.com so they’re a coaching and consulting company and on social media, Tiktok, Facebook, Instagram, all the things. I’m no. Indoor

Chris Baran 1:01:26
voice, I love it, bro. Indoor voice,

John Palmieri 1:01:29
yeah, and that’s on all social media platforms. You can find me there. Okay,

Chris Baran 1:01:33
I love, I love when people come up with interest. Give us the interesting part of why the no indoor voice, where did that come from?

John Palmieri 1:01:39
Because when your staff tells you that they know you’re in the building before they see you, that’s why I knew you were here. I could hear you, I just couldn’t see you.

Chris Baran 1:01:54
Okay? Last question, yeah, one wish that you had for industry. What would it be?

John Palmieri 1:02:01
Let’s collect let’s start working together. Let’s be the powerful, amazing group of people that we are. And let’s stop with the with the negativity. Let’s stop with working against each other. Let’s work with each other. Love it.

Chris Baran 1:02:16
John, you are an amazing human being. You exemplify mentorship, because you give value, regardless of where you go and what you do. And I just want to say, for being on head cases, I just want to say, thank you so much. It was a pleasure,

John Palmieri 1:02:32
Chris, thank you so much, you know, and that goes both ways. You’ve been a great supporter of our industry, and we wouldn’t be as good as we are without you. So thank you.

Chris Baran 1:02:42
Well, that’s mutual, my friend.

Speaker 1 1:02:44
Thank you so much. You’re welcome.

Chris Baran 1:02:47
Thanks again for watching this episode, and if you liked what you heard, remember to smash that like or follow button, depending on your preferred platform, and make sure to share it with anyone you know that might be a fellow head case. Head cases is produced by cut action media, with Marjorie Phillips doing the planning parts, Lee Baran on the video bits, and Adrian Taverner mixing the audio jazz you.