ep33 – Andrew Finkelstein

This week I’m speaking with a Harvard and Wharton Business School grad and founder of Busy Salons. He is president of Salon Ninja, and the creator of A-Game Mastery Coaching. He is a Hi-Performance coach and has worked with many high profile salon artists. It’s my honour today to chat with Andrew Finkelstein.

  • Andrew shares how he got started in the beauty industry after graduating from Harvard business school 
  • How business school was helpful to a point, but he realized that many people have to start with training their minds to think like a business person, and that doesn’t necessarily mean the numbers
  • Managing starts with managing yourself, and building the right habits 
  • Andrew shares the difference between inspiration and motivation

Complete Transcript

Chris Baran 0:00
How great would it be to get up close and personal with the beauty industry heroes? We love and admire and to ask them how did you learn to do what you do? I’m Chris Barron, a hairstylist and educator for 40 plus years, and I’m inviting all our heroes to chat and share the secrets of their success.

Well, this is a great week for head cases. Today’s guest is been a Harvard and Wharton Business School grad. He’s been the past president of John Louis David, founder of Busy Salons, creator of a game mastery coaching and president of Salon ninja. He is a certified high performance coach who’s worked with Frederick Fekkai, or eBay, Garen Scott Cole, Beth Minardi, and Rodney Cutler, just to name a few high profilers. And think it’s time. So let’s get into this week’s head case. Mr. Andrew Finkelstein? Andrew, it is an absolute pleasure on here I was remarking in our green room beforehand, how we I’ve known of you for years. So I’m actually honored to have you on here. And I was actually listening to some a couple interviews that we were doing the other day. And it was, it was interesting, because some of your points of view are exactly the same way as my business coaches. So and that’s what I really wanted to hit on today was was a little bit about the coaching that you do, etc. But first off, Hey, welcome to head cases.

Andrew Finkelstein 1:42
Well, thank you very much, Chris. I love head cases. I think my entire life should have been on sooner. Yeah.

Chris Baran 1:54
You know that. And that’s why we we figured that, you know, our business is such, you know, it’s funny, I’ve been involved in the business world. I’ve been involved in the corporate world, and I know as you have, and and if I have it, right, you’re not a hairdresser, per se, but you’ve been in it all your life. Is that correct?

Andrew Finkelstein 2:11
That’s correct. My family. Yeah, my family. And yep. So I

Chris Baran 2:16
know, you probably more than anybody know, the, the how hairdressers get painted as the emotional group. And I always laugh when people do that, because they said, Oh, my God, if you’ve ever been involved in a corporation, you know, they get just as emotional inside there as they do outside as well. Absolutely.

Andrew Finkelstein 2:35
It’s all the same. People, people are people that just happen to take on that label. And maybe perhaps because there are, you know, they are artistic. Let’s let’s, let’s end.

Chris Baran 2:49
Yeah, and I think probably that your emotions can arise, you know, and I want I don’t know of anybody who wouldn’t know you but for the people that that don’t I want to get just a little bit of your history about where you were. But what I want to do even before that, because now we hear you are you’re that you’re certified high performance coaches, you’ve been CEOs, you’ve been the founder of organizations. And but I want to know what was what was Andrew like, as a teenager? First off, what was it like, which group were you in? What part of the group were you on? How did that end up leading you to where you are today?

Speaker 2 3:25
I was a dork. I’m not saying I’m still not one. Liked athletics. liked art. Like girls. Like, like life, I was a little guy. Caught. I was short. As a matter of fact, when when I got my driver’s license, I was five two and one time. My mom and my mom and I were driving in New York City. I had my license, and we get pulled over. And the cop, you roll the window, it was very different than you roll the window down. He comes up to you don’t have to get out of your car. He comes up he looks in he says, Son, could I see your license? He said, I actually said Do you have a license? I said yes, I do, sir. And hand him a license and he’s looking at he said, Do you think I said to him, Do you think I’d be driving with my mother? You think I beat your mother if I didn’t have a driver’s license? I know I looked like three years old. But anyway, that was that was so I was I was a young kid because I was in school. A grade ahead of myself. And so combination of looking young, being short, and all that all that came with it. I didn’t have much of a social life. Let’s put it that way.

Chris Baran 4:59
It It’s interesting, we bear some commonality here too, because I actually I started school when I was four. So I was always the youngest, the smallest, the tiniest, carrying out and quite insecure and, and always sat back. But I learned how to tell you one thing, Andrew that I learned real quickly in school was find the biggest, meanest kid in everybody would say, Go find the biggest, meanest kid, punch him in the mouth and let him know your authority. What? No, I’m going to find the biggest not meanness, but the biggest kid who had the biggest reputation for being a scrapper, and he became my best friend. So when I made sure nobody picked on me, because Cliff was around and

Andrew Finkelstein 5:42
I had my Cliff too. Yeah, very good strategy.

Chris Baran 5:47
Yeah. It’s just Yeah. And you don’t get your knuckles dirty or anything like that. So, so what? So now so you’re your teenager, you’re gone through life? What was your? How did you get into the hairdressing industry.

Andrew Finkelstein 6:01
So after I went to university came out, and I was working for Macy’s, I was a assistant buyer, in the women’s and half size department, I had not a clue as to what half sizes were women’s budget dresses. So I was I was learning things in the corporate world. And my family was in the business. But we really didn’t talk about the business all the time. That was it was just not on my radar. And then one day, I get a call, not from my dad, but from a cousin of mine, who was working with my dad. And he said, Hey, could you come down to the offices lot want to speak to you, we’d like you to join the company. So I’m flattered. I said, Well, you know, I have this position. He said, Yeah, come on, down. Let’s discuss it. And that’s I went into the offices. And we had a conversation. And I gave my two weeks notice. And the next thing I knew there, I was part of the part of the business, and started as a receptionist, in a very large salon, that we had in New York City and work virtually every position, except didn’t have my license. So I couldn’t work as a stylus couldn’t touch hair. And that’s how I got in.

Chris Baran 7:35
So the now first of all, congrats, and I want to brag on you a little bit here. Because the you said I’m very casual. I found that everybody that goes to Harvard or Wharton, they they just have went to university, but you went to the probably the two best universities that are out there. And so that was on was that was on business, was it? It was both business. Yeah. Yeah. And so now how did that the that’s where I find it really interesting. And I wish that we could in our industry, we could have more people that were the business mind could help so much, the emotional or the creative side, and particularly the hairdresser that, that. I find that, you know, I’m going to give you just a little bit of history of why I understand this so well, is that when I was I was young, and my wife and I got married. And we had we had kids we had you know, I was making $189 a month, my rent was 90. And so I knew I didn’t have any money. So I kept thinking my clients don’t have any money. And I would be doing a harmful act, if I asked them to buy retail. And and it wasn’t until I took some business classes, and somebody with not only sales sense, but But business sense. Talk to me about what people’s needs are. And I’d like just to how did that help you going going into the reception business? I’m sure that must have been enlightening from business and then with salons into their doing front desk. But then how did that help the growth of the salon and what did what was the insights that you saw into our industry at that point?

Andrew Finkelstein 9:20
Well, I think you you brought it up at the beginning of this conversation about the self conception of stylists, people. People go into the industry because they consider themselves to be creative people and they are creative people. Which which it’s great. It’s great. But what what happens is what you learn in business school is to step back and look at something objectively as best she can. You break it down, you know? Basically accounting you’re looking you’re looking at a translation of numbers action Has into numbers. And it’s just a, it’s really a point of view. It’s what’s what I find extremely interesting. Today, in the coaching work that I do is that we, we work with people to separate them, you’re not being a Schizo, you’re not schizophrenic, if you can stand back and look at yourself and look at your life and look at your business as dispassionately as you possibly can. It’s almost like a stoic point of view of looking at the world. And, and I find that I find that very helpful. And I found I found Business School helpful to a point. But what I discovered along the way, is that people don’t need business school, they first have to train their minds, and think, think like a business person. But a business person, you know, doesn’t lack empathy. I think what you were describing Chris is, you know, the Chris, who was making $189 a week, as it’s very empathetic guy, who could you could relate to the customer who was making probably less than you weren’t, you didn’t want to add on a retail sale, because you were kind of my dad told me this, don’t use X ray, you don’t have X ray eyes, don’t look into other people’s pocketbooks. You know, people people are driven by people aren’t driven by the numbers. And numbers are really important. They’re driven. They’re the emotional selves. And by the way, by the way, business school, you do learn marketing, you do learn those other things that have that emotional component in designed into it. So it’s not all it’s not all the numbers. Really not.

Chris Baran 12:06
You’ve said something there that I thought was really interesting is that is that you said, look at the numbers, but then you have to be able to step back. Look, and I’m assuming that look and analyze is in there? Absolutely. And how, like, when you’re coaching people? What do you find is like, do you find that that do they have a hard time doing that is? Or is it an emotion that comes up? When you’re when you’re coaching them on that? And particularly, I’m sure that if you’re coaching them something, and they’ve got a problem that you’re they’re trying to you’re trying to help them? Wait? What is that? Like? What how do you how do you as a coach, deal with that emotion? Or if it comes up? How do you deal with that? Well,

Andrew Finkelstein 12:54
directly, but let me let me just frame what I believe coaching is, it’s it’s really a delivery process, that leads to discovery. It leads to decision making, performance improvements, and then ultimately better living. So So you know, it’s, it’s when there’s a when a client is blocked in some way. We discover we dig deeper, you know, what’s going on here. It’s it’s not pounding, pounding the numbers into them, that they’re working it through. They have to come to a point where they have to make a decision about okay, I’m going to stand back, I see how I’m getting in my own way. Because you have to get out of your own way to progress, don’t you? If you’re the You’re always the roadblock, which so many owners are? It’s not the team. It’s not the customers. It’s their thinking. It’s the thinking process. So we really coach on a thinking process more than you know, teaching something specific, if that makes sense to you.

Chris Baran 14:17
Yeah, and you kind of this is one thing that I think our, our viewers and our listeners often get confused with. And maybe if you could help shed some light on this, is that that the difference between teaching someone something, coaching them something, coaching somebody on whatever that is, and then being a mentor to them. So if you had to put those three words, coaching, teaching mentoring, could you shed some light on for just to give some clarity to the listener and viewer so that they understand from a perspective what each one of those means to you?

Andrew Finkelstein 14:55
Well, coaching, the coaching that I do is is has a lot to do with habit formation. Okay, and I am a high performance coach. And there are six key habits that we teach. One is, you know, seeking clarity, let’s say. So we just talked about that numbers show a lot of clarity, don’t they, but in seeking personal clarity, another is is generating energy and then raising the necessity, meaning you got to succeed. And so I question people, you know, what’s that? What’s that level of necessity, we discover it. And then and then there are the social parts of habits like increasing your own productivity, developing your influence, and then you demonstrate courage. So that that’s the bucket. That’s what we work on. Coaching. Okay. teaching, teaching, is really there’s a topic, and there’s a presentation. And you you work with someone to test the check their knowledge, and take them through, help them break it down, so that they discover the thing, the thing itself, mentoring, mentoring is really asking a bunch of questions, and giving some giving some advice, so to speak, coaching in in when I coach, I’m not giving advice. That’s, that’s, that’s the whole thing. Because I believe, I believe that people have the answers, they just haven’t formulated it in their minds. And they have some, they have some blockages which which prevent them from coming to get back to determine what the answers are a lot of a lot of it has to do in coaching with helping someone boosts their confidence. And the way the way you boost someone’s confidence, and I can’t boost your confidence, but I can, I can engage with you in a in a conversation. And here’s where a little teaching comes in. So you you become more competent in something. And there’s what we call a confidence competence loop. The more you’re competent with something, you feel competent, the more confidence you gain, the more confidence you gain, then the more you’re apt to try something new discovered, and that’s where courage comes in, etc. So it’s a mix of things. But can you be all things to one person? Yes, you can be? Yes, yes, she can. You just need to know which hats to wear when? Yeah.

Chris Baran 17:55
So is it is it the within the coaching processes that you do is it I’ve often heard that some people who say when it when some coaches come in, what they’ve got to do is they don’t know what your they may know how to get you there, but they don’t know what your background, what your information is, etc. So they have to ask more fact finding stuff first. And then they might not even know you in order to get you to the answer of what you need as the coach IE, I don’t even know if that’s a word, but we’ll call that a word for now. But is it that you have to ask them questions to help them to get clarity on what it is as opposed to some people will just give you opinion?

Andrew Finkelstein 18:41
Yeah. Yeah, before before we even enter a process, they have looked at their we have a bunch of questions. So they have looked at their own clarity. Okay, they’ve graded themselves, we give them something so so what I have from someone is, okay, if this is what how we define clarity, you’re looking, you’re looking at the world through you know, on a scale of one to 10 you’re grading yourself as as an eighth, okay, I know you’re fairly clear, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. So, so we go into the relationship with with that in mind. The other stuff, all the stuff I look at as kind of a story and narrative. If they want to fix if they want to fix their business, we got we got to work on ourselves first and then so that we’re capable of working on the business because I can come in truly, and as a consultant, because you know, I’ve run enough I’ve owned enough that it quick time I can tell you, this is you know, this is off base. Look at your pay plan. This is maybe interfering with With the performance, it’s not sync your marketing all day, you know all the stuff. But then what can you do with it?

Chris Baran 20:09
Yeah, yeah. And sometimes people won’t, if you just tell them, here’s what you need to do, and filters that they’ve got my throw up a block, where they’ll just either pacified till it’s gone, and then they go back to their old house. That’s absolutely, it’s so habit, I want to go back to your habits. And you’ve talked about the habits that have I find that so intriguing. Tell us a little bit more about when you say the habits, I’m assuming that you’re looking for the habits they have in what personal business or whatever, and then you’re trying to find out one that either isn’t working, what are you looking for there,

Andrew Finkelstein 20:45
I’m not looking for anything, so to speak. What I what I’m looking for is with them, we’re looking at these habits and how they’re displayed, how they’re displayed. And then we go through exercises that they discover, you know, where they can improve. And they do stuff, and what’s working, what’s not working? So

Chris Baran 21:15
give me an example of the hat when you say a habit just for the listeners. So that Sure.

Andrew Finkelstein 21:19
Okay, so if you’re not feeling productive? Got it? What’s your what? Step back for a second? How are you planning? How are you planning your day? How are you planning, this is something that so intrigued me about owners in the business versus stylists in the business. Because stylists are used to hopefully planning a book, you know, write a an owner has to plan a business. So technically, technically, they know they know the moves to make. But you have to plan as as an owner, let’s say you have to plan every day. Every day, you have to plan every hour. And that doesn’t mean every hour has to be productive. You need rest in between all that good stuff, which is something that we do because you need you need to have habits so that you can be energetic. How many? How many own? I mean, it’s it’s a hard business, Chris, you know, let’s it’s it’s not a simple business. It’s not a high margin business. It’s dealing with when you when you talk about emotions we’re dealing with, you’re dealing with people all the time, people are customers, people are team members, you know, we’re not stamping out widgets. This is this is very different. So one of my one of my mentors, the great Michael Gerber.

Chris Baran 23:02
Right from Emeth,

Andrew Finkelstein 23:04
I worked with Michael, who was a senior coach with Michael. And Michael’s talked about management, and he would say, management, managing people, we can barely manage ourselves. You think you can manage people, so So really, what he was saying is manage yourself first. Once you manage yourself and those things that you talked about at the beginning, you know, the emotional component, you got to get that down, you got to get that down. And then you could step into the arena. You know, but people people are all over the place. So so they don’t have the right habits, habits of showing up. And when I say showing up, it’s not just on time, right? But but really being your best self. And knowing what that best self looks like and how you’re going to interact not only with yourself, but with other people. And these are the things that we work on. And there there are some tricks of the trade like you know, trigger words and things like that. So when you enter a room when you enter the salon who is going to enter that salon? Right? Who are you who’s going to come to the party that day?

Chris Baran 24:28
The is interesting what you say there forgetting author’s name, but he he the name of the book was alter ego. And he and he talks in that in his book he talks about

Andrew Finkelstein 24:43
that everybody, Todd Herman

Chris Baran 24:45
Yes, yes, it was it was taught and any and he says that everybody has an ego but and he says everybody has to have multiple egos. And at first because I always you know, in our industry, we have this perspective that you Oh, that eagle is bad. Exactly. Yeah. And and it’s not. And that’s not necessarily true is Ego is the persona that you have to have when you’re in a situation. And it it, I loved what he said when he said, Listen if I’m with at and this was his words I’m paraphrasing, but he said if I’m with my daughter playing tee time, I have to have a different persona. And a different because he puts his persona as a character, this is the character that I have to be I have to be a different character when I’m with my daughter a tee time, then when I am going in to do a presentation in front of a fortune 500 company? Absolutely. Is that what you mean, when you’re talking about triggers? Yes,

Andrew Finkelstein 25:49
in a way, yes. I mean, when you when you’re literally, we used to have something one of our general managers had above the door of the salon, you know, he had, you know, you’re entering it, you’re this, you’re a star, and you’re, you know, just take that, take that idea I’m not, I don’t agree or disagree. But it’s, it’s who you want to be the kind of qualities that you want to exhibit. When you enter when you enter that business. And, you know, I have mine, how I want in my interaction words, how I want to show up, be with people, it’s very much who’s the guy. Anyway, talk about being and becoming, I mean, it’s, it’s you we’re continually we have to be to become, okay, we have if we want to become great in our, in our work, in our marriages, in our relationships, we have to be that, okay, we have to be great. And you’ll find when when you define what that is, well, it’s little by little, you become great. And

Chris Baran 27:15
it’s interesting I was, we were talking the other day, and I can’t remember where this came up. But we were talking about that it’s sometimes who you are, and who you hang around with, is who you will become, rather than and he was the example that this person gave us, he said that if if you want to be a millionaire, then make sure you have at least five millionaires that are your friends and hanging around with. And if you’re hanging around with five people that are millionaires, you’ll become the sixth, if you want to become whatever a better father hang around with five fathers that are incredible fathers and you’ll become the sixth because they do that. And I’m trying to think of that from what you said and kind of a reverse engineer, that if you go in to your salon, your business of who you want me to be, and that if you guys have the same values, then they’ll they’ll migrate to that is Am I close to

Andrew Finkelstein 28:17
that’s close, that’s close. And just recognizing that every everyone has who they want to be, you know, every stylist working behind the chair has their best selves. And what happens is, so many times they have this really misconception of who they believe they have to be interesting when they’re there. And when you’re and Nick, people leave great businesses, because the owner and the stars, they don’t get one another. You know, they just don’t get one another they think the owner is trying to force something onto them, etc, etc, etc. When that’s yeah, most owners want want their silos to be great. Yeah, I’ve never met one who hasn’t. They just they just don’t know how to bring out the greatness in them.

Chris Baran 29:19
Yeah, that’s true. It’s interesting. I was I was talking to a school owner the other day and and they were talking about retail sales. And, and he said that. I said, Well, have you ever tried just doing XYZ with a promotion? And they said, Oh, no, you can’t do that. I said, Well, why can’t you do that? And he said, Well, it’s because the people that we have as students think that as the owner, because they know they’re not getting any money from it. They think that all you’re doing for that zoo, you can align your pocket with more money. So he said, I have to change the way that I am about it. And he just gave the whole thing a different twist, which was made it about them. And I found that very interesting, because then it was the same thing, but they didn’t think he was trying to gouge money, take money from them and put it in his pot. And then in that person’s pocket was interesting. Very

Andrew Finkelstein 30:21
interesting. Very interesting people, you know, people have such misconceptions, and we’re Miss we don’t not really how to engage with people. Yeah. And there’s the fear factor, you know, in a school. School is a little bit different, I would say, then the salon, but the fear factor runs high of losing. Right? I mean, where’s the emphasis, I don’t want to lose. So I don’t want to show up. I don’t want to be bold, I want to be confident with showing up with with the stylus. I don’t want to tell them the truth. So we live in Little Lies, because we don’t know how to, we don’t know how to present things in a way that’s going to help someone grow.

Chris Baran 31:16
Yeah. Is that part of the process that you go through with them? And hopefully on to the stylus that how to deal with those little lies?

Andrew Finkelstein 31:23
Yeah, once you once you learn how to deal with it yourself, you discover how you can deal with it with other people we teach we teach, influence how you go about influencing someone’s behavior, how you persuade them to do something. Yes, very, very much. So. But again, going back to your, you know, the original thing about looking at business, we look at, we look at influence and persuasion the same way you could step back. And there’s a step by step process that we use, that helps people influence other people’s decision.

Chris Baran 32:00
Yeah. Interesting. The, it’s interesting, that I’m, I’m, I’m thinking, I’m still picturing this image where I see Andrew, at the front desk. And then, and now I see him as this coach. And I find that in our lives, somebody said to me the other day, and I keep forgetting the word that they use, they said, well, they wanted me to do a class on what do they call it? When you said, you’re always ever changing? You’re always doing something different?

Andrew Finkelstein 32:35
evolving? Yeah, well,

Chris Baran 32:37
that was the word I given. I’m like you I said, I didn’t just go in front, forgotten the word. And when you’re jumping from one thing to the next, you’re never letting that one thing be you for the rest of life. And I said, I just evolved into what I’ve been from one stage to the other, because that’s where my interests went. Correct. And that’s what intrigued me so that I, I feel that I’m doing something good. During, you know, while I’m in this thing called work. And I see there’s but there’s always a little catalyst that’s in there something that shifted it for you. For instance, like if you move from employer to employee, to an entrepreneur, or successful individual to a coach, or, you know, you’re a hairdresser and you’re moved, you’re moving from becoming a colorist, and then you get intrigued, and now you’re just thinking become a successful designer who does color? What was the linchpin for you? Where did it happen? That you’re in business, and I know that you were with you, let’s face it, when you you were the the CEO of John Louis division. And now you’re in charge of these all these sessions. I want to talk a little bit more. Excuse me about Glenn B’s later. But what happened? Where did you go? Oh, mg, you know what? I’m coaching or helping all these people within my organizations, how do I help other people as well? How did that all happen?

Andrew Finkelstein 34:15
That That all happened slowly. And then all of a sudden. It happened it. The coach, the coaching thing had been coaching all along, we had we can talk about Glenn B’s later, but at Columbia, we had something called Glenn B leadership skills, which is which was really a coaching process. The great thing about Glenn V was we were so ahead of our time. I mean, we were doing these things 30 years ago, you know stuff that’s just people just catching on to now. When was when was the real moment recently, that maybe we Five years ago, I had a moment and it had nothing to do with business, it was totally personal. It had to do with wanting to make different kinds of impact and impact on people’s lives through the business. So as a coach, we can, I can really make a significant impact on individuals and lives and they can live in and get other people to leverage that through their own being and through their own coaching on on to others. And that came five years ago, actually, when my son’s wife gave birth to what is now my granddaughter, and grads. Yeah, I mean, sweetest girl in the world. But if at that moment, I don’t know what it was. I can’t explain. I just said, Andrew, you know, I know there’s more to do and what you what you’ve been doing. And this is really about life itself. And I want to I want to learn a new way of doing what I do. I don’t know if that answers the question. Because, you know, I think I was more of a consult, I was a consultant. I ran organizations, now let people run their organizations. I’m not consulting with them. But I’m really working with them so that they can be the best business owner that they can possibly be.

Chris Baran 36:50
Got it. So Did someone come to you first and say, Hey, I need help? Or did you seek out and said, Hey, I want to help other people. So I’m just going to put my, my shingle out there?

Andrew Finkelstein 37:01
Well, no. People are always coming to me that they needed help. And I, it was a pleasure as a consultant to help them, which I did. And we did some great work together, they did great work. And I guess that’s where a little bit of the mentoring that you talked about came in. But the, what I noticed, and you said before, if people don’t incorporate this, I can give them the greatest system in the world. I have some great systems, truly great systems and many out there that exists, other people have, but if someone doesn’t embrace it, if someone doesn’t make it come alive for themselves, it’ll never come alive for the organization. And I just saw that piece, you know, how that how the owner, how the CEO of the company, makes, makes a company come alive. That’s all I can say. Because this is an aliveness game and you’ve been in, in salons you walk in, and wow. You know, the place of the winner. You know, you know, everyday people are doing great work. It’s it’s that feeling of aliveness. That which always intrigued me with the business from from the time I entered it behind that desk, oh my god, it’s it’s it’s a burst of energy. And and I just wanted people to discover all the great things that they had, in spite of all the hardships that we all go through, that they can come out on the other end, and achieve their dreams.

Chris Baran 39:13
This episode is sponsored by the salon associate accelerator from trainers. playbook.com. Are you struggling with the time and cost of associate training? Do you feel like your salon is running you will get your associates on the floor, all with 90% Less time from you so you can get back to building your business. Get them world class design, finishing color and client care skills they’ll use every day for the rest of their career. While you focus on realizing your vision. Go to trainers playbook.com and get the salon associate accelerator and now, back to the show. i You said magic word there. And that was the word discover. I, you know, I use the word coach. In my name, I call myself Coach Chris Barron. But that’s more because I’m an educator. And I help people, I want people to discover things that they come to us for, for training. And I know you’re very different in that way, what are your, your high performance coaching, so your coaching business and people to be better at what they do, and so on? Not my wheelhouse. But one thing I’ve learned as an educator, is, is when you help somebody to discover something as opposed to telling them something. That’s the difference to me. And I know I’m stealing other people’s lines here. I don’t remember who said it. But there’s the difference between motivation and inspiration. And I think that’s what you do is you inspire people to discover what the need is that they have to do, so that they can move forward. Because I think, at least I’ve been told, and I’ve been told so many times, maybe I believe it, is that motivation is short lived, but inspiration is longer, much longer. And that’s where you change somebody’s mind to do something. And that’s kind of what I heard and what you said there is when you can ask people that will ask you how what when all of those questions that will say make you discover what you do. And that’s when I don’t know if it’s its expression, I’m Canadian, by heritage, so we always call them two by fours. I don’t know if they call them that pieces of wood, the same two by fours, two by fours. Okay, but I think we always have those blinding flashes of the obvious when like, somebody had grabbed a two by four and smacked you between the eyes, metaphorically. And you went, Oh, m g, there it is. And it’s just this thing that hits you. And I’m getting more and more of, that’s exactly what you do. When you go in to see people and by asking the questions you ask.

Andrew Finkelstein 42:03
And it’s also, you know, getting people to challenge themselves. I challenge them. Look, Chris, I there’s, what do I get paid for? I get paid to push? Yeah, yeah, that’s what I get paid for. Here. It

Chris Baran 42:22
can’t tell people when you say push, what to the listener and viewer? What does that mean?

Andrew Finkelstein 42:26
Push means to be really to bring out help them see the best in themselves, and to become the best in themselves. And it’s more than, you know, encouragement and cheerleading. It’s really through the question that we get them. And they, when they see themselves and they’re not fearful of what they’re seeing, they can make a move. And then through the habits that they formed by making the move. That becomes a snowball effect. And they they become indomitable. I mean, unstoppable. Yeah. It’s, it’s incredible what people can achieve. Incredible.

Chris Baran 43:14
It’s interesting, you because I’m, and I want to throw this other thing, I’ll just even for an added layer of the onion to know even more about push, when you say push a push back. I’ll never, never forget, one of the first times with me working within a corporate environment. And being a hairdresser is that there was a push, and then what we call push back, would you would push back as I say something I’m gonna push back. And in corporate life, if you do something, people will push back just to see if you will respond to fight for what you believe in Sure. Right, wrong or indifferent. I’m not saying I believe in it or don’t. But there is that that side. And I and I learned very quickly, that if when you know that it’s not right to call it a game, but the it let’s just call it for that for this purpose, that if I say something and you push back, that if I believe in it, I better push back again. Otherwise, I am not standing up for what my decision is. So tell us the difference when you’re talking about the push and encourage it do you do we will employ that technique or do you find that you get that pushback when you suggest something?

Andrew Finkelstein 44:31
Well, no, I don’t

because the suggestion comes in, in a certain context, is that really they discover it? I mean, I’ll put something out there. It’s never the answer. Right? It’s it’s the vessel that we’re working on. And they’re, they’re pouring the stuff in. Not me. So So you know, what I what I have to be as you were being when you went to like corporate things you had to be courageous, that’s demonstrate that’s part of a that’s a habit. That’s a high performance habit. That’s what high performers do. They don’t, they don’t get pushed around to the to the point, you know, it’s not like, I’m going to lose the account. I mean, you if you’re doing the right thing, you’re not going to compromise yourself and your integrity for for, you know, another person sake, that’s just not If you do you’ve lost the game. Yeah, you really, you really have. You’re not You’re not being your best self.

Chris Baran 45:53
How do you deal with like, there’s, I know so many people in our industry, that they their little voice, the thing that they have in their brain that they don’t have as high a view of themselves as other people see them, them have them? And that holds their courage back? Absolutely. That how, you know, when you see that in that person, what’s the processes that you use to help to bolster that courage to help them to get back?

Andrew Finkelstein 46:25
How? I won’t say that it’s a valve process. But there’s a bunch of questions that I would ask. Tell me, tell me a time where you felt, whatever, whatever it is. Yeah. And and then we dig into so what was going on there? And by the way, I’m not a not a shrink or anything. That’s not no, we don’t we don’t go. And I think shrinks are great. But that’s a diff difference. Their job? Absolutely, absolutely. But so. So tell me about a time when you when you felt that you weren’t stepping up to the plate there, when there was more that you had to say? Or that you compromise yourself? What did it feel like, you know, etc, etc, etc? What could you have? Knowing what you know, today? How would you do it now? What would you what tactic would you take, etc. So we do some role playing on that.

Chris Baran 47:34
Yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s great. Because I, you know, the, the thing that’s helped at least just speak more from a person place, object objective, is that a personal opinion, is that I know that being an A type. And I always ended up focusing on the failures that I had, as opposed to the wins that I had, until I had someone that helped me along that, that. And there was a simple process they used with me and said, What happened after that, and they just said, What happened after that, and what happened after that. And then it finally went, Well, you know, and after that, it was okay. And I learned and it’s become my motto, I’ve said it on many of these already my motto in life now. Or I used to fear it, I used to run away from failure, I hated failure. And I can’t say I get up in the morning, and I have a little stretch cup of coffee. And I can’t wait to fail today. But I my motto in life now was failure way to the top. Because that’s just what we do. And what I love that you’re saying is how you help people. You give them examples where they they know that this when you did this, you did it right, you were there. That was courage, identify with that and use that as a trigger. I love that because then they get that feeling of what winning has, and I think in society right now, and I may just blurt out something that you may or may not agree with. But I just think that now in our society, we run this place this thing where it’s more about the failures you’ve done, when we know you have to get you have to go through that to get to the winning side. And, and I think people focus way too much on what people have done wrong. And I think that’s affected some of our societies affected

Andrew Finkelstein 49:25
the society a lot. I agree with you. And it’s affected our business a lot. Yeah. We’re coming out of you know, we’re coming out of three years, four years of whatever, it was a pandemic years. And there’s been a shift in mentality, you know, when when, just quickly because when we went into the pandemic, okay, everyone is stage one phase one of the pandemic was, oh my god. We got To protect the world as it is, you know, and and, and we were looking at safety and security, and certainty, and understanding, right, that was that was the beginning. And we so we all gravitated when I say we all society gravitated to that. And then the second was, you know, phase two dealing with the crisis itself. And in dealing with the crisis itself, how did we express that through something called Wellness, basically. Now, phase three, moving out of it, what’s happened with all that stuff, with, you know, going internal and the wellness and the pampering. And I don’t say that pejoratively. I don’t say that. No, the, you know, putting anyone down. But now, you know, what’s come out of it is, oh, my God. People are doing the bare minimum. That’s the mantra to do the bare minimum, the what you what you need to do, that’s all the bare minimum. So you see that being expressed all over the place. Just I’ll do enough to get by, when what’s really happening is companies everyone’s looking for, there’s a demand right now, for a new level, because we’re dealing with the change change world, you know, today, today, we got to go the extra mile. Don’t wait, right? Don’t wait. So how do you how do you do that? If you don’t have that mindset, of, okay, so I tripped up. So watch, let’s move forward, new day, let’s go, then that’s, that’s where people like you and me come in, to encourage people to, to step into step into a new world bravely with a lot of courage with, you know, they have to develop their energy they have, they really need clarity, and those people who do are going to be the the winners. And unfortunately, unfortunately, there’s not going to be a lot of winners, because that takes something that where we’ve all become not used to which is called wor k work, whether it’s whether it’s self improvement, or business improvement, we got to go to work on ourselves first, right?

Chris Baran 52:40
You know, I know from the viewers watching right now that you would never would never pull this out looking at me how handsome and young and youthful and vibrant in my how young my hair color is. But it’s I remember, years back and the the metaphor is not the same. But the results are. And we had a period in the 80s, where we had salons that were just getting by. And there was high salon high end salons and there was low end salons, and then there was middle salons. And the high end salons and the middle salons were running at the same level. In other words, the middle salons were trying to do the same work, capture the same market share that the high end salons were the low end salons were saying look at I’m the little guy down here. And what happened, as you will know you were there, the high end salons and the low end salons made made out like bandits and the middle salons went away. Now I’m just wondering from that parallel, if what we’re talking about right now, even though it’s different, it’s not about high end, low end, middle, what we’re talking about is work ethic. Then I just want to get by and for whatever whatever wherever those stations are. And then there’s that middle ground that the we seem to have this calling this causing this disrupt in the middle. That is a work life balance. And that’s the words that I hear all the time I want work life balance, which means I want this and this and this. So is it. Andrew that? Like, I think keep thinking that as a business person. I want to keep my business ethic. But if the people have a different mindset, do we shift our mindset so that how do we help to accommodate as many of those people within the parameters and values that we have for our business? Yeah, it’s really I don’t know if I’m just talking

Andrew Finkelstein 54:50
or not, but what is work life balance? What does that what does that really mean? I mean, you can you can if So it’s not the hours. That’s not like 40 hours here and 40 hours there. Yeah, I mean, great. It’s it’s what should what you’re doing with those hours. And and you know, you could you could work 60 hours if you want and be supercharge, or put in a lousy 60 It’s how you do it. And it’s really not, you know, spend an hour with someone is different than spending an hour with someone else? How are you? How are you really showing up with your family? Are you loving? Are you being a great mom? Great Dad? What what are you doing there? What are you what what is your? What is your true role, and I go, I go into the high performance habits are no different than men in business. You want to see, you know, see clarity, you want to have the right energy. Come on, you want to raise the your necessity, you want to increase your productivity at home, so that it’s not just standing by on his chair, that your productivity, your productivity is doing great things, you know, spending, spend your time making that time with your children really productive time really meaningful time. You want to be a great influencer to your kids. And that’s not Yeah, it Matt No one No one likes an absentee you know, mom or dad or parents. You have to be there. But there’s work life balance. I know. I just don’t think people really know what they want. I think I don’t think they’re really clear. Because anyone who tells me that they don’t want to make great money, so that they can live a live a great life and have time for themselves and have time for their loved ones. I think is well, they’re they’re smoking something. Yeah. Which is?

Chris Baran 57:17
Which seems well, this podcast will be legal in some states. And you know, one thing I kept thinking on there is when you’re talking about that one of the habits that that they need to have is, is to be able to compartmentalize their week, so that they have that, but then how are you taking apart that? So I’m just gonna make it really simple so that my calendar day is set out. And this is from my family. This is from my work. But how am I make sure that I’m so effective that in that work, hours that I have that day be 2347 I was talking we I was we were doing a podcast with Daniel Mason Jones said he has one girl that works for and she works for 18 hours, 18 hours a week was I can’t remember she said it was eight total, I think was 27. She worked for nine hours a day, three days a week. And she makes 100 grand a year clear. Yeah, you know, because she’s so effective in that and then she still has her life balance, and she can do it take her time off and do all the things she wants to do. But you know, I think that I think one of the best pieces of advice that our group did our our team here did is we were having a coaching session from somebody when they were saying, Okay, what’s the values that you’re having? We went about putting together all of our values and make sure Do we all agree that these are all the values that we have? And I think that’s why the core people that we have in our organization have never left because we all have the same value. But here’s the one thing that Andrew that just shook my core that I think that your background brings to what we do. He said to me, what about abundance? I know what what you said well you don’t have abundance as one of your values. And do you mean that money and he said well not money is not necessarily the value, but allowing yourself a you want abundance in your life abundance of love abundance, spirituality a bunch of a bunch abundance in finance. And once you have your clarity on that, that is of abundance is of value that it changed my whole perspective when and no longer i from that point on I said I would do it for free. I’m pardon my language money doing shit for free. Because, well that’s not true because because I will help some Buddy for free, but the reality is, we have to focus on what we love. And we know that the money will come along. Correct can’t do it for, for free.

Andrew Finkelstein 1:00:09
Yeah. And that girl, just going back to Daniel Mason Jones. woman who works in the salon, she’s really focus, clear, she’s, she has to be energetic. She has to be on point. She has to be highly skilled, she has to be charging a certain amount. So she feels comfy. She’s feeling really comfortable and confident. And, and she’s probably very well practiced. Because that doesn’t come overnight. And here’s, you know, and you know, this, or maybe you we haven’t really talked about it. But, you know, the people really feel that because of the social media, and they’re seeing these folks pop up in the influencers. That, you know, it’s, it’s easy. It’s easy, you know, and it’s not. It’s not it’s a struggle, but it’s okay. It’s okay to struggle. That’s how you grow. Yeah, yeah. That’s the challenge of life. You know, getting great, and you know, you know, terrific hairdressers. And if they’ll tell you the truth, in all the hours that they put in all the work that they did, you don’t see all that stuff, because that’s kind of sounds old fashioned. Well, when I was young now, but it’s the truth. It’s, it’s, it’s, you know, I remember, you mentioned Frederic Fekkai Frederick was was still is, I mean, he worked like a demon. Yeah, he worked like a demon. I, I can’t say that Frederick’s life was totally balanced and all that stuff. But to achieve what he achieved. He was on point all the time. He’s very clear on what he wanted. Yeah, I remember being on a plane with him. We were flying out to Michigan, because he was he was joining our company. He’s going to do some trainings and stuff. And I said, So Frederick, what’s your What are you looking at? What do you what do you want to do? He said, I want to become the next Vidal Sassoon. Well, hey, there’s there’s room. There’s room, you know, but to do that, you know what, you know how hard Vidal worked? Oh, right. This is, and there’s joy in it. So So work life balance, discover the joy in your work. When you discover the joy in your work, and the joy at home, you’ll have work life balance. Yeah, because there’s an abundance of both available.

Chris Baran 1:03:02
I think you hit the nail right on the head. There is the word simple word three letter word joy. What creates joy for you? At home, in life in the car. Interesting.

Andrew Finkelstein 1:03:15
Now that’s interesting. And bring joy to your clients. I mean, if you bring joy to them, right. Wow, What greater gift can you give to someone than that? And what that looks like in the chairs, you know?

Chris Baran 1:03:33
Yeah. And that equates to loyalty doesn’t it

Andrew Finkelstein 1:03:35
that’s equates free Hill loyalty and real loyalty.

Chris Baran 1:03:41
Andrew it’s been I’m just going was going I don’t know where the hell the time went on this. But I’ve just got I’m going to do this as a segment we do just on fire requests. Absolutely. And I got one more question I want to do after that and don’t let me forget I want people to know how they can get a hold of you. But these are just rapid fires you know just click Cancel quick sentences whatever in what turns you on in the creative process when you’re getting stuff going planning things what what what turns you on? What

Andrew Finkelstein 1:04:17
the vision

Chris Baran 1:04:23
I heard another word you I know you’re I heard I heard an interview you were doing with someone and you were talking about vision boards. And do you do you prescribe vision boards for people?

Andrew Finkelstein 1:04:34
I do. Yeah, I do and a bit for business for Business Owners. You can prescribe something called a battle board which is your which is your plan. Wow.

Chris Baran 1:04:48
I like that. Okay. In general in life, in what what do you dislike the most bullshit What do you love the most?

Andrew Finkelstein 1:05:04
My wife

Chris Baran 1:05:07
boy good words proudest moment of your life I think I am going to write down what I think has just moved okay proudest moment of your life

Andrew Finkelstein 1:05:21
my son’s having having a child

Chris Baran 1:05:25
there I wrote down granddaughter it there what do you what do you hate most about our industry

Andrew Finkelstein 1:05:37
stoop this stupidity

Chris Baran 1:05:40
person you admire the most

Andrew Finkelstein 1:05:47
wow my dad

Chris Baran 1:05:56
person you wish you could meet

Andrew Finkelstein 1:06:04
Nelson Mandela

Chris Baran 1:06:08
something people don’t know about you

Andrew Finkelstein 1:06:18
that’s a pretty good photographer.

Chris Baran 1:06:22
Oh, hello. month off where would you go? What would you do

Andrew Finkelstein 1:06:31

Chris Baran 1:06:34
what would you do? What would

Andrew Finkelstein 1:06:35
I do I go to the tea houses

Chris Baran 1:06:42
they’re beautiful Have you been? Yes I have I had it went through one of the ceremonies was absolutely breathtaking thing that was something that terrifies you

Andrew Finkelstein 1:07:19
what’s happening with our country?

Chris Baran 1:07:23
Favorite curse word?

Andrew Finkelstein 1:07:28
You use it before bullshit.

Chris Baran 1:07:30
Yeah. favorite comfort food. Pasta. Something in the industry you haven’t done but you’d love to

Andrew Finkelstein 1:07:45
split it into quite fewer.

Chris Baran 1:07:50
Okay, one do over in your life. If something anywhere in history, family life in general, if you had one thing you could do over what would it be?

Andrew Finkelstein 1:08:05
Have a conversation with my dad, about my brothers coming into the business?

Chris Baran 1:08:15
Tomorrow, you couldn’t do anything that was involved with the hair industry? What would you do?

Andrew Finkelstein 1:08:22
I I’d coach another industry.

Chris Baran 1:08:27
Um, there you go. Okay, last question. If you had one wish for our industry, what would it be?

Andrew Finkelstein 1:08:44
One wish for our industry. Just to realize, just to show up each day, knowing how important you are in the lives of other people.

Chris Baran 1:09:02
Wow. Andrew, that was great. Thank you. If people want to get a hold of you, if they want some coaching. They want to get a hold of you what what’s the best way?

Andrew Finkelstein 1:09:13
Best way is to send me an email. Andrew at Andrew finkelstein.com.

Chris Baran 1:09:23
Got we’ll have that up on there as well. And that and Finkelstein is

Andrew Finkelstein 1:09:30
E I. E I am Yes. Ei N

Chris Baran 1:09:33
Okay, good. Andrew, I can’t thank you enough. It has been an absolute pleasure. I feel I have a new kindred spirit in the industry. And you’re out of Miami, right? Yeah. Yeah, well, next time I’m down there. I mean, we’re both in heat factors. You just have the humidity.

Andrew Finkelstein 1:09:53
You better next time.

Chris Baran 1:09:56
Next time we’re out together. We’re gonna have dinner together. Absolutely.

Andrew Finkelstein 1:09:58
Absolutely. I have absolutely and if I come up your way,

Chris Baran 1:10:04
you have a by Reverend Phoenix. Yeah.

Andrew Finkelstein 1:10:07
Yeah, it’s a good place, by the way, Chris. Great. Oh, I

Chris Baran 1:10:11
love it. I love it. It’s

Andrew Finkelstein 1:10:12
a great place. Yeah.

Chris Baran 1:10:15
Andrew, thank you so much behalf of our viewers and listeners for all of your knowledge for giving up your time. Thank you so much. Thank you

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