ep67 – Jay Williams

You’re going to love this week’s guest. He is an executive coach who helps leaders at every level from small business to Fortune 500 companies to achieve their goals. He will help you shift your thinking and get you to the truth. He’s written two books and I absolutely recommend them both. A hearty Headcases welcome to Jay Williams.

• find him online at jaywilliamsco.com
• Jay started out in the beauty industry working for Bumble and Bumble; first in sales, and later in their business school.
• Jay’s background is in leadership training and that’s where his passion is. He strives to make everything simple, executable, and universally applicable.
• Jay says that feedback doesn’t have to be the F-bomb. It can be neutral: neither good nor bad, but simply actionable information and data.
• For a leader or effective communicator, conflict resolution requires understanding of the intention behind the conflict.

Complete Transcript

Chris Baran 0:00
How great would it be to get up close and personal with the beauty industry heroes? We love and admire and to ask them, How did you learn to do what you do? I’m Chris Barron, a hairstylist and educator for 40 plus years. And I’m inviting all our heroes to chat and share the secrets of their success.

Well, welcome to another week’s head cases. And I know you’re just going to absolutely love this guest because I do as well a little bit about him. He’s an executive coach that helps leaders from small businesses to Fortune 500 companies achieve the outcomes that they’re after. He’s a frequent speaker at industry advance, you, I know you’re gonna love him because his presence is warm. He’s funny, and sometimes he’s got a little touch of irreverence to it. So obviously, he’s my kind of people. And when I watch him speak, he’s engaging, he’s great at helping you shift your thinking, he’s great at getting you to the truth. He’s also the author. He’s the author or Arthur, the author of this versus that, which is better thinking and also better choices better leader, and as about leaving the mark that thinking and skills for behaviors of influencers, and I can’t wait to get into it. So let’s get into this week’s head case. Mr. Jay Williams. Mr. Jay Williams, welcome to Head Cases. And it is an absolute pleasure to have you on on our podcast.

Jay Williams 1:37
Well, is it okay, if I reserved my feelings about the podcast till the end?

Chris Baran 1:44
I just I’ll ask the same question. At the end.

Jay Williams 1:47
It’s fair, because it’s like when you get on stage and people clap. I always feel like you know, what made me earn it. Right. Just

Chris Baran 1:59
respond, okay. Well ask No, let me make a note here. We ask same question at the end. And I have to preface for those of you listening and watching her go this is there’s no turning off. Like God knows what right now. But as you may or may not know, before podcasts, you often go on and get everything working, et cetera. And we’ve had nothing but shits and giggles the whole time that we’ve been on before him. So I think we set the bar pretty high. So just want to say hello, or low. Yeah, depending on your perspective. So, Jay, I mean, I always like to start off with with, with how you got involved in the industry that we’re in right now. But I just want to say that, you know, that for the audience that is listening right now, is that the first time that we really met, I mean, I knew of you. And I, I’ve heard of you before, and I had actually one of our mutual friends out of the Mesa salon there and and I talked about you and she said, Oh, I love that guy. He’s helped me along so much. So it’s a pleasure to have you here. But I also want to know that what’s your background? How did you get involved in the hairdresser, just in hairdressing, or in the industry as a whole? How did that all happen?

Jay Williams 3:13
I think there’s two unintentionally. So let me preface that way unintentionally. And two people I would highlight, one would be my wife, she’s a headhunter a recruiter. And in 2003, she was recruiting for Bumble and Bumble. And at the time, I believe Estee Lauder was in the process of acquiring them about 20% each year. And she was the sole requote recruiter. So it’s going back some time, I think there’s about 53 people, including marketing, their VP of sales. And for anyone who will see this, I’d look the exact same way for twenty one years ago. So I added,

Chris Baran 3:58
that’s the filters that we have on the Yes,

Speaker 1 4:02
it’s actually what is it? You can’t believe anything you hear and 50% of what you see. So that that’s that’ll be the case. So I hadn’t actually been in a salon. Very few. You know, I’ve been in barber shops, but not salons. And was it using hair products, so little to no knowledge of the industry? And so she said, You know, I think this industry is wired, for the work that you do because I was talking about how people emotionally connect and the psychological part of what you do. And so probably about six months went by and I’ll wrap up the story is that she said you know and openings come up. And so originally it was in sales, and then I got into their business school and that’s how I got in really through my wife set up the meeting. If your next question was, who do you have to sleep with to get the job? In this case, it was my wife and She was my wife when it happened not before, like some people. So that’s how that happened. So I would certainly give her the credit for that. And then there’s a gentleman, Howard Hafetz and I don’t know if you’ve heard the name.

Chris Baran 5:13
Yes, I do. He was,

Speaker 1 5:15
I believe started what was now salon today. Magazine. And so we crossed paths. And he was second generation a son, Josh is third generation. And they both Josh served on the PBA and great human beings separately, just very passionate and a very human side to them. And Howard introduced me to Dr. Lui Sansei. He’d written a book, he’d written several books, I think he was up to 23 books, but he written the book, sigh cosmetology and Dr. Liu was fully committed and has been for for some time, but he in our real close friends, and they said, hey, we’d like to chat with you, you know about converting this into a workshop. And so that’s really what probably catapulted my, my speaking I speak inside and outside the industry do work inside and outside the healing, get a lot of credit, Howard Hafetz , I always, you know, I appreciate this about him. When he met me, Josh, his son, and I were working together and we got to talking. And he said, You know, I can get people to recognize you. I can get people to, to be in the audience, if you want to be on stage. And if you ever write a book, and I hadn’t written mine, at that point, I can get people to buy it. And to his credit, he checked each and every box. So I hope I answered your question succinctly. But those are the two people there’s certainly been people have contributed along the way. But those are two people that heavily influenced my time in the industry.

Chris Baran 7:03
Yeah, I mean, anecdotally, I want to I’ve got a quick story about that you probably know already, and probably can correct me on if I’ve got it wrong, because you’re a lot closer to Dr. Liu than I am. But there was a story that I can remember listening to him one time when he said that I, I went on stage and where I was, I was counseling this woman. And, and he said, I, I told her what she should do, and it kept my brother was a divorce or whatever it was, but And he gave her all this advice of what she should do. And then she came back for the next visit. And he and he said, what should you do? And he said, Oh, no. And he said, Well, what, what did you do? He said, Well, I did this and this and this. So why did you do that? Well, that’s because that’s what my hairdresser told me to do.

Jay Williams 7:52
That is his story. He says actually disruptive to him, because he was a psychologist. And at some level, he thought he was the most influential person in society, save someone’s mother or father. But if you see where I’m going outside of that, and that’s why he went to Howard, he and Howard were actually childhood friends. And they I don’t know that they were in touch at that point. But he knew Howard was in the beauty industry. And he sat when I want to have a conversation with you. There’s something that’s a little bit disruptive to me, who is this person. And in addition to him being incredibly smart, he’s incredibly funny as well. And so we got a chance to talk. And really, you know, he was the first doctor hired in the beauty industry. And so where I didn’t, you know, no hair and hair care products, certainly at that time, I knew human behavior. My background was around leadership and not I knew everything, but that was really where my passion was. And he really laid out that there are two sciences that were constantly at work in the beauty industry. One was cosmetology, you know, everybody listening big study hair, skin, nails, and then psychology. And this is where that side cosmetology came from is the blending of the two. And his story really resonated with me and Mike you I’ve probably shared it you know, sometimes it’s I took the liberty and change the I never let the facts get in the good way of a story, Chris. Never that. So I don’t know if you could relate to that. To that. Very well. Okay. Yeah. Okay, so I told some version of that story.

Chris Baran 9:39
So the, you know, it kind of sets me right into one of the questions and I’m gonna be very candid with you as well is when I when my going back in and I took a look at your website, which by the way is great. And I buy it, first of all, anybody that’s on there should go just to find out how to get ahold of you, number one, and number two is you’ve got some of these groups. Eat tips that you have in there that are only one minute, two minute long. And I thought they were amazing. And there’s one on there that you talked about, I want to go into because it sets what we’re talking about right now. And person, I’m just gonna say, everybody knows what opinions are like, but I have this this opinion, this thing that hits me. And we’ve been talking about the hairdressing industry and how people on stage always talk about that we’re therapists amongst so many other things. And, and there’s this there’s this thing that always comes up about that we’re so delicate when we’re in a team meeting when we’re in talking to a client, and we think of the right things to say to a client. And yet sometimes when we’re with our either peers, or in a team meeting, or whatever, and and there’s, there’s that old fence defense that can come up when it comes to emotion, emotional charge starting to happen. And and so is there any any words of advice that you can give to, like owners or people that are that that are working for owners or on their own, and they’re going into a meeting and they know that their emotion is high? Or that other people’s can? emotion can come up? What? What advice would you give them? How would you ask them to deal with that?

Jay Williams 11:22
No, Chris, I don’t have any advice. So.

Chris Baran 11:24
Okay, good. So moving on that next question.

Jay Williams 11:27
My web designer, they’re the ones that know. I? Listen,

Chris Baran 11:35
make something. Yeah.

Jay Williams 11:36
I’m gonna spit ball here. I, here’s what I saw. And I’m going to answer your question directly is that when I looked at business is there’s this is oversimplifying if there’s a product or process and the people, and I think where you’re going is the wildcard is always the people in those skills that come along with that. And you know, when you talk about leadership, you’re really talking about communication. So now, when you’re talking about communication, you’re talking about people, right? And then you talk about this emotion. And I think, if we’re going to launch into the conversation, that foundationally, this starts with emotional intelligence. And so for anyone listening, let me just put out this definition. And there several of them is emotional intelligence is just simply your ability to identify and understand an emotion in yourself and others, and then adjust your behavior accordingly. And the reason I lay that foundation, there is to your point is I think it’s important before we go into conversations that are emotional, that we’ve checked our emotions. And I would like to invite people with the work that I do is to have this belief system that everything can really just be a conversation. And so part of that prep, I think, is having this emotional intelligence and being aware of your emotions in the other person’s emotions, prior to going into the conversation, so let me just stop there. Because I know you have a lot of experience in this area. And I’d love for you to jump in. Tell me what your experience is because you work with people at all levels.

Chris Baran 13:30
And I’m glad you said that is meaning said what you said not that I have I mean, not you I mean, I look up to you in this regard, and I have stuff that I’ve learned along the way that could probably a pittance of what you have. But what I can remember sitting in a meeting, when because obviously, I’ve worked not obviously, but I’ve worked with corporations before. And I always tell Chris, by

Jay Williams 13:54
the way it was I could tell

Chris Baran 13:58
they couldn’t either, and that they can wonder what the hell is he doing here? I couldn’t say reaction. Sometimes I felt like I was the only connection between the real world and hairdressing in them. But I know I still looked up to them. But I remember the Guttman group was a was a leadership group that they had come in and speak to all the directors that there were and I and something that really hit me, and I don’t know if I’m 100% on it yet, but they started to talk about the different kinds of people you’re going to run into in a meeting and audit people as a whole. And we know my dad was a very aggressive person. He wasn’t assertive, he was aggressive. He believed in, you know, if you couldn’t say it with a curse word, then then it wasn’t being truly emphatic. But he was an aggressive personality. And then you have what they called aggressive, passive aggressive, and, and then aggressive, assertive and passive aggressive. And, and so there’s those personalities that we We have to deal with. So how would it like if you’re if you’re one of the others, and you’re dealing with one of the others for because perhaps I’m might be taking too bold a step here and right now, but sometimes we put authority figures into one of those categories. And I find that sometimes just I had to do a little quick talk just on the other day on a boss versus leader. And later I’d like to figure out, you know, your take on it, to see if I was correct. But that maybe after you answered this

Jay Williams 15:35
speech, you want to do fact check and find out.

Chris Baran 15:39
Yeah, I’m trying to figure out if I said the right thing. So I’ll go back and say, No, he was wrong. Before I just want to share with it’s a different approach. Before they speak, but go ahead. But what if you’re in a meeting, let’s say you’re in a salon meeting, and and one person is aggressive? And the other person is trying to calm it? Because they’re trying to think as you said, there, it’s about communication? How can you how can you get from not your emotion rising up and you’re going to one place? What would you advise that people did if one person is being really aggressive? And then you’re still trying to get a point across to that person, but they don’t seem to be listening?

Jay Williams 16:23
I think there is a warning as to your question, sorry, I’m slowing down. Because look probably like you there’s there’s a lot going through my mind. I want to make some bullet points here. I think the skill of the future, both for leaders and individuals, is adaptation. And I think adaptation in the moment. So let me start there. I think one of the things and so everything that I do, I want to be simple, and executable, and at some level has universal applicability. So I’m going to give all the filters to this response. Got it. With the different behavioral based assessments, I think any understanding of human behavior is is going to benefit you. Where I’ve seen people struggle is when they try to revert to that new articulate the different personality types. And now they’re trying to categorize someone they’re trying to remember what the criteria is. So whether they assigned letters to it, or it’s the stripe on the ball. The potential is what if you’ve missed diagnose. So I want to share something with you. If you’re listening that you don’t have to dive nerves. It’s universal applicability. If you feel as though there’s this heightened emotion and passion around the topic. I would acknowledge and question so to answer your question directly, what do you do to defuse the situation? It’s acknowledged and question. Now, again, I’m going to revert back to the emotional intelligence. And we can talk more about that if you’d like, but it’s my ability to identify and understand. So Chris, if you and I were in a heated conversation, I would one identify it, because some people don’t even identify that and it’s like, Are you missing all the signs here, so people, the high emotional intelligence can identify it. The second part to this is to understand it. And so that’s why we acknowledge so if you were coming on assertive in your words, I would say, Chris, you know what, I hear a lot of passion around this for you. Tell me a little bit more about that. And so what I’m trying to do is one, let you know, I get it, this is important to you, I’m not putting any judgment, I just picked a very neutral word. And then I’m trying to get more information and data, because I may not understand why you’re upset, or even if I think I do, I still need to validate it, to make sure that I’m on track here. So I would acknowledge and question and I think that could serve you well, whether you’re doing a consultation, it’s just a simple one on one, its conflict resolution. When I say acknowledgement, I’m differentiating between that and validation, by the way. Validation is Oh, I see I made you upset or you’re angry at me, or I was wrong. And sometimes I think that’s where people struggle is that they say something that’s they validate something that they don’t feel so it’s true. So I’m not asking you to validate the statements just an acknowledgement that you have a lot of passion around this and tell me a little bit more tell me what’s driving that or tell me what part I’m playing in, in your passion around this and you get information they go, Well, you know, you keep contradicting it or you keep doing something that I told you that bothered me, or I don’t feel So you’re hearing make now I have more information and data. And actually, I would just keep repeating the acknowledging and validating and the acknowledging is not being patronizing by any means it’s just letting the person know, alright, I’m tracking with you to this point, I’m gonna need some more information. So now, I’ve identified the emotion. Now I’m trying to understand that, once I do, the third piece of this emotional intelligence is to adjust my behavior. So if someone says, I appreciate you sitting there with the arms crossed, or rolling your eyes, I appreciate you raising your voice. It may, right now, if I’m asking and understanding, I couldn’t begin to adjust my behavior.

Chris Baran 20:42
Right. I love that. And I and it, this has been really helpful for me as well, because I certainly don’t have your background in this, but I, you know, I’ve studied some of it and got it from some of my mentors. And the thing that helped me with this one is, is I’ve often when somebody is gets to, and their tone starts to go up, is that my teachers always told me take a breath, you know, and just sit for a second. So because of your you know, if you’ve got, you know, that person can be bordering on leveling up to insanity when it comes to getting aggressive or assertive, or or just plain angry. And if and if you get upset as well, then you got to insane people trying to figure things out, which doesn’t work. I’ve also heard said like my was was that is acknowledging that what’s there? In other words, like, if you feel like if you and I were having that conversation, I thought you were frustrated with something? You know, I might say, you know, Jay, I’m just, I’m sensing that your, your frustration? Is it as be frustrated? Is that something that you would suggest is identifying with the person? Yeah.

Jay Williams 21:54
What I loved about what you did is you asked another question, you’re just seeking feedback. And that’s something else that I talk about is soliciting feedback early and often. And again, the universal applicability was the consultation. It’s soliciting feedback. I mean, done technically correct. What is a one on one with your team? Technically, it’s getting feedback, information and data that helps you to improve your performance for that person. And the reason I’m giving you this definition that I came up with is that it’s just feedback. People are like, Well, is it good or bad? You know, it’s, it’s just information data. When you ask me, Tim, I hear this, I just need some information debt, am I on track? They’re gone. They’re frustrated. And they said, I’m pissed off, that’s complete, I’ve passed. So now I have more information and data, right? To improve my performance. So I’d say, you know, just so I understand, is it the situation? Or is it me? And they go to I go, Well, that’s great news. Because if you’re telling me what to do, I can adjust that. If they go into the situation, it gives them context that hey, maybe I shouldn’t be directing this at you. So I love that you did that. And I love that you didn’t assume you didn’t make a statement, you asked a question to get information, data to validate it. So again, information data to improve your performance, by the way for that person, because you can talk with someone else, they go, No, I liked this fire exchange. This is how I process it’s nothing personal. I grew up in an Italian family or an Irish family. And this is the way we communicate. So again, you talked about the emotion. One of the things I want to caution the audience I’m going to assume the majority of this audience happens to be in the beauty industry, is that my experience has been an informal survey, that pretty close to 99% of the people who are in our industry are empaths. They take on the energy and the thinking of the people around them. So if somebody is angry, if they’re happy, if they’re frustrated, if it gets heightened they gets, I’m not proud of it. I’m not an empath i i can show sympathy, not empathy. I don’t take on another person’s energy or thinking and it works well for me sometimes like that conflict. I’m not absorbing what you’re doing. What works against me is when someone truly needs someone to cry with them and be excited with, I kind of miss that I intellectually know what to do, how to show up. I don’t take on the energy and thinking and so it becomes a, I think a heightened conversation in our industry, especially when you look at the multiple generations now. The embracing of what I think and what I feel and what I know and I should be able to share that 24/7 That you’re an you’re an empath how these conflicting emotions are these range emotions, especially if You’re going to be a stylist, you’re going to be a leader, you’re going to interact with all these people. And you have to adjust your style based on not your values, but you have to adjust your style based on needs of the individual that can take a toll on you.

Chris Baran 25:14
Yeah, yeah. I love where you’re going to give you an example of just what you just said is because I think that what can happen is, when you don’t have data, then you’ve got, you’ve got conflicting stories trying to merge that don’t merge together. And I remember our company was doing business with an Italian company. And we were, we said, it came down to this, he said, Well look in order to be 5050 partners in this. And they said, well, we’ll put in x amount of money, and you’ll put in x amount of money. And we said, and we said, Okay, well, it should be this. And then because this is what we’re going to need. And they said, well, we don’t have that much money. And we said, well, we’ll put in that we’ll put in that money. And and then you can pay this off later. And they got furious with us. Because we said, Well, look, we’ll still be 5050 Well, as it turned out, we had to go through some counseling. And what happened was, it was just merely that US law and Italian law was different. Because Italian, you could I could say, Hey, listen, Jay, we’re gonna get into business, I’m gonna front all the money will still be 5050 partners will drop the agreement that way. And you can do that in the US. And in Italy, it goes by the amount of money you put in dictates your shares. So they thought we were trying to muscle him out of shares money and ownership. And it wasn’t until we got data. And we said, Okay, tell me why you’re upset about this. And, and they said, Well, here’s why. And we said, well look at in the US, it’s US company that will be forming so and they cleared it up. And they went, Oh, okay, well, then everything was calm. But you know, it was until you gain all that data back and you can do it level headed, then you’re, then it’s going to result in a problem. So, you know, I think that that counseling that you just gave everybody is something that we should really all take really close heed of is that we need to just get data, get data and then make a decision. I

Jay Williams 27:18
think you brought up two very interesting areas. I think if we could go a little deeper is that if you just when I ask audiences, you know about feedback, how do you feel about it? How often do you solicit it? How do you take it? What I asked them about more often than not, they say, Well, depends on if it’s good or bad. What if data was neutral? Let me just shift your thinking there. What if it became neutral to you and like uses information and data to help me improve my performance for this company in Italy, one of the things that you articulate exceptionally well was fundamentally where there could be a pinch point in communication, we judge ourselves by our intentions, and others judges by our actions, you were like, hey, we’ll work it out. It’s my intention is, let’s just pull this together, let’s get started. I trust you, you trust me, I trust you to the point that I’ll put more into the game than you have to. And so when they got upset, I’m sure at some level, you guys were like, our intentions were to make this work for us to come together to get yet they judge the action. And I think that’s important in communication, especially when there’s conflict to understand the intention behind it. And so one of the things in defusing conflict is I will ask and encourage people to ask if it has reached that point, is just so they understand what what are you thinking, my intention is behind this conversation behind that recommendation? I think it’s important. And so you’ve mentioned conflict before. And if you don’t mind me, just bouncing back and forth want to leave the audience hole. So one is to understand the intention to what they think your intention is. And by the way before you tell them what your intention is, I would ask them what they think it is, first of all, yeah, interest, I think is important. And the other thing, I think, especially when things get heated, and I’m going to give you an extreme situation that I’ve been in, is I will ask people until I hear there’s a lot of passion around this, again, just a neutral statement there. How open are you to another perspective around this? Uh, Chris, I’ve had people that Jay, there’s not perspective now that I’m open to hearing, this is exactly what I want done and how I want it done. In which case, then, if you’ve set those boundaries there, then you know, we’ll move forward. I have had people say what, you know, I’m open to a different perspective. I’d say well, what’s the best way to share it with you? They said Let me cool down a little bit. Let’s pick up the conversation so that people could know you can share it with me now but what I’ve done this to help identify and understand and adjust my behavior to defuse the situation. And again, that’s why I think the personality types and even learning about people will benefit you is just if you get too caught up and trying to analyze somebody, and then you are diagnosed and you miss diagnose, it could send you down a wrong path. But I want to share with you, I hope, has universal applicability. So even if you understand their personality types, regardless of who they are, this will still work for you.

Chris Baran 30:34
What I loved that you said there, because I think that there’s this, we’re not talking, you know, holding hands singing Kumbaya together, that’s sometimes somebody’s going to have to make a decision. And I think as long as you can collect data, help both sides see it, and then say, look, we’ve got to make a decision here. And somebody you know, and you know, and if you’re the owner of the business, you I mean, let’s face it, to use a football analogy, I bought a football. So I’ve got to make the final decision of what it is based on the football. So I love what you were saying in there. And I loved about in the intention. And I’m trying to draw back on. It’s funny. I don’t know if you’re like me, but I’ll often go back and I’ll take notes that I’ve written like, three, four years ago, and it’s piled up on my countertop, and then I’ll go and I’ll start to pare them down and put them back into some kind of semblance. Yeah, there you go. Exactly. And, and I was reading this one thing that quotes that I have gave to me. And it was it was like, it’ll show you how quickly I was getting at this stuff. I think it was from 2015. And he wrote down the words is, was percent what perception was one word that he wrote down. Is that the perception that you were talking about? And it was are you open? And because this what sparked it, when you said Are you open to a different way of looking at it is because then you have the perfection that you saw in what you were doing. And then their perspective of somebody else’s take on it. And in this one they were talking about, there’s two, if you did an exercise, and you got three people and you put one person says, I have an idea. And then you tell the other person, I’ve got a better idea. And then you tell you tell them, Okay, you’ve got to work this out. And you have the third person that comes in and says, are you willing to compromise because we know that sometimes compromise is what has to happen. And then they said, he said something different? He said, Okay, good. Next example. Okay, I have an idea. And then the other one other person says, I have another idea. And this is where like when you were talking about leadership is the leader would come in, and then said, are either or both of you open to coming up with an idea. That’s even better than the one that each of you have right now. And getting together and talking about that. And this is something I just put in. So this is obviously on the top of my brain here. And when you said that, that’s what came to the top of my mind. How do you how do you feel about that? I

Jay Williams 33:18
there’s one piece of everything you said I would just tweak a little bit is I wouldn’t ask the question in a way that we get a yes or no response. So I would say how open are you to considering? A third perspective, so so to speak, is I would say what would a third perspective Bay. So as a leader, I think you have to introduce this is where we’re going. I’m not flexible, that there’ll be a third idea here, where I am flexible is how we get here. And I think leaders, there’s little nuances that they bring to the table like that, I think what is imperative for a leader to which he modeled, again, if anybody’s listening, is that as a leader really seeks out to speak last. And more often than not, I’m finding that leaders are coming in the room. And their feeling is oh, let me just, you know, empty my cup so to speak. Here’s what we’re going to talk about. Here’s what’s going on. Here’s my thoughts on this. And I think the reason I mentioned this, if you’re listening is that I think the biggest challenge for leaders today is that they feel insecure being in their role because they don’t know what’s going to happen and they don’t know how they’re going to handle it even if it does now that they know what’s happening. And I think your ability for lack of better terms to show some humility is going to serve you well but part of that is vulnerability being that you know what? I don’t know the answer. However, I am confident between these four walls Alton, who’s in the room that we can come up with some of these solutions. And so I do have some thoughts, I’m going to hold on to them to the end. But I just want to go around the room and I want to capture some of your perspectives. That’s how I would coach leaders today to go. So for two reasons, one, I don’t think it’s rapidly as things are changing, some people are skilled at it, I don’t know if they’re skilled at having the answers, or they’re skilled at adapting and extracting their resources, meaning their people. Those are the people that I see they’re most effective, it just requires you to be humble, especially if you’ve been rewarded your entire career for having been the person with the answer the go to person. And I think for leaders working with an organization now, and that’s really where I’m trying to move the CEO and the senior staff is that, you know, if you’re looking at professional team, you’re not the player, you’re the coach, not the player, you’re not throwing the touchdown, you’re not scoring the basket, you’re not hitting the home run, you’re doing what that coach is doing, and letting the players play. And I think that’s the opportunity. But I’m seeing a lot of leaders that you know what, they grab a jersey and they get in the game, and their people are like, if you’re getting to play, there’s no need for both of us to play this position. And I’ll sit back and

Chris Baran 36:17
Bengal let you do this episode is sponsored by the salon associate accelerator from trainers playbook.com. Are you struggling with the time and cost of associate training? Do you feel like your salon is running you will get your associates on the floor, all with 90% Less time from you. So you can get back to building your business. Get them world class design, finishing color, and client care skills they’ll use every day for the rest of their career. While you focus on realizing your vision. Go to trainers playbook.com and get the salon associate accelerator. And now back to the show. Yeah, yeah, it’s interesting. I, what came to my mind as you were talking there was about John Maxwell. And for those people listening, I mean, wrote probably wrote the manifesto of whatever that is on leadership. But he was being interviewed by a mentor of mine. And and they said, he said, Well, what do you do if if I’m giving away all my information? And then they don’t need me anymore? And and John said, Well, your your job isn’t about giving out information. Your job is to create more leaders. And he said, You don’t have to leaders aren’t the smartest people. And they’re not the most talented people. They’re the leader because they can collect those people that are the smartest and know what to do. It was interesting that, you know, Hi, my name is Chris. And yes, I’ve been on Instagram. The point was, I was on Instagram and and they had an old clip of of Steve, Steve Jobs. And and he said he was being interviewed. He said, Do you know how many committees we have? And the guy said, No, he says, well, as big as we are, we don’t have one committee, there is no committees in apple. All we do is we have departments. And we put the person in there that we give the authority for them to do whatever they need to do in order to make it because we hired people that are smarter than we are in that area. So we have to give them the autonomy in order to do their job. And want to spin that back to hairdressing industry. Is that sometimes, Hi, my name is Chris. I’ve been a salon owner. And I was an asshole because I tried to get everything about what was my name on my on the shingle on the roof and make it look like I did it. And the thing that I’ve seen is that the more that the boss, or leader can incorporate other people in making it getting their ideas, their input, then that’s the way that you To me that’s how you create loyalty and trust within your group and they don’t want to leave you they want to stay on they want the company to excel. You

Jay Williams 39:24
break this down, there’s so many great points you made. I think if somebody’s listening today, the primary function of a leader today you gave multiple examples of people articulating this, their primary function is to improve the thinking of their people. And I didn’t say this I read this years ago a futurist written is that the leaders of the future will the gift won’t be knowledge, their gift will be their ability to help people think different. And this was years ago that it was said as that never been more true than today when you can get me with the evolution of really AI not did it happen the last six months, but it’s gotten on everyone’s radar in the last six, eight months, knowledge won’t be your point of difference. I mean, it’s one of the first things when I get on stage that I say is knowledge won’t be my point of difference. You can literally Google use AI to get anything that I said, yeah, yeah, it’s a big F, if I have a gift, it’d be my ability to give you a new different deeper thinking. And so as a leader, I think that is your role. It requires the humility and you gave an example of jobs. And I’m humble enough to say that there are people smarter than me, and I’m going to bring a man now in my humble enough to let them do what they do, so that they can get the significance and self worth and sense of belonging that they need. So that I get this emotional commitment, this discretionary performance, so that that takes a gift. Everything they say feeds into this because now as a leader, that the other reason you’re asking questions, the reason I’ve every solution to everything that I do, and everything you asked me would be to ask a question, everything we even demonstrated with conflict, and leaders often where it will, what am I going to say, as a leader with your people, that’s why you lead with questions I want to know to know, I want to know to think that I want to know to feel before I respond. And I also need to know, you know, there’s so many different dynamics, you know, with why this is again dead? Is it a willingness or an ability to different conversations? I’ve seen what people will make people ask me what to do. So I you know, give them an answer. You’re assuming that they wanted the answer. They may have just wanted validation on their thinking. And, and that’s interesting to me, because I’ve started to ask people, you know, going back about six or seven years ago, well, before I respond, what do you think? I had a company, I had a partner, Josh, who I told you about and how we’re we’re partners, their product company. And what I was finding is 80% of the time, they weren’t asking for an answer. They were asking for validation on their thinking. And the reason I said that knowing my role is to improve their thinking, let me hear what your thinking is. And if I have a chance to get and by the way, not only more often than not if you hire the right people, did they have the answer? Quite often, Chris, they had better answer than I did. And my being able to acknowledge that develop their self confidence, their self direction, their ability to self assess, and this goes back to as a leader, am I improving their thinking? I wouldn’t know unless I if I give them the answer, I have no idea what their thinking is around that solution. If I asked him a question, I can begin to gauge it, I can see where there’s a pinch point. And if I’m going to improve their thinking where we you know, I’d ask another question. So I think the examples that you gave John Maxwell and jobs, those were examples of this same type of thinking is our primary function is how do we improve the thinking of the people. And by the way, some of the byproducts that you know, he talks about the significant self worth sense of belonging where people weigh in, they buy in, and where companies are looking at attrition and attraction. Now, how do I bring on people? And how do I keep them? This is the way to do it. Let them feel as though they’re part of what’s going on.

Chris Baran 43:35
too quick? Does this stuff work on your wife? No,

Jay Williams 43:38
by the way, none of this works if anybody’s listening. Us This is a funny question. It’s a great question. So when I was at Bumble, one of the things I have a good friend now who’s there we pitch to Bumble and Bumble was a coaching program. And they were like, okay, so if you had the network is looking owners have no one to go to Silas go to the manager, Manager Go the owner, the owner goes to their spouse, you know, burns out that relationship. So they’re all and so they let us sample different programs ended up going to NYU to take their coaching program. To your point, Chris, they said that times not to coach two times one when there’s an emergency. So if the buildings on fire, not gonna say, Hey, so what? What do you think that your thinking is? Yeah. The other part though, Chris, is what you said was don’t coach your spouse. It was a very direct thing. So if anyone’s listening, what I would share is there are pieces of a coaching framework asking open ended questions acknowledging and questioning that you can ask. However, to your point, I know you said joking like because that was my first thought. Wait, does this stuff work everywhere? Because I have. Yeah, I have a lab at home I could use Yeah, so interesting. In that if you’re doing it, there’s some things that happen in intimate relationship that just they tipped the scale so you can use components of it. So as an example that people are listening in this is low hanging fruit, but I just want to be sensitive to everyone’s situation. It would be the difference of you saying to your spouse, why didn’t you take the trash versus eBay? What would get you to take the trash on Thursdays? You know, the way that what and why is actually a coaching it’s, there’s a science to it. Why takes you back in time? It’s probably because why don’t take the cash on Tuesdays. Well, I work late on Tuesday traffic’s and I’m really tired, right? So you focus on the problem. The other thing is it puts the person on the defensive. Why were you late? Why don’t you get that report? Right? What questions are solution based in future based thinking? So if you say, Hey, babe, what would need to happen? You know, and you go, I don’t know, if you gather everything around the house, right? When I got home stuff coming in, it was right there. I could take it. So to answer your question, two parts, don’t coach your spouse. However, there are elements that you can use that will serve you very well.

Chris Baran 46:09
I remember my, because Rita and I are so close in our relationship and and our business, meaning when I’m writing material, or I’m doing stuff or I’ve learned something, I’ll share it. And then so she knows some of the six techniques, like it’s one thing to have a technique down and then use it the other one begun using that technique on me, aren’t you as I can remember, I just learned how to debrief. And there was a science behind it. And, and, and I remember, we were maybe I can’t remember if it was a heated moment, or I was she was upset about something and I was trying to be the the in between I was going to be magically debrief the situation and calm it down. And so I started with the first question, and she said, Well, I won’t use the I’ll use fuchsia. That’s another nice word, okay. And she, she said, Don’t euphausia debrief me. I learned very quickly, there doesn’t matter what you do, then work on done work on your spouse. So I agree. That

Jay Williams 47:11
same lesson, no need for both of us to go through the worst one of us it shared with the other. No need for both? You know, for anyone listening, I appreciate you sharing that personal example. Because I think the idea is that it’s worth talking about these things is that it’s not how do you be one person at work with one person? Um, how can you be the same person all the time? And so you using that personal situation? I think it’s important. And again, you go back to asking a question, because I had the same thing. And my wife, who I definitely won’t repeat what she said. But basically, let me rephrase it a little bit. She was like, I don’t need work J, I need husband J. And that’s so much, Chris. But I mean, I’m just cleaning everything up.

Chris Baran 47:56
I’m with ya. So

Jay Williams 47:58
I think it’s important that for the listeners there is that you can identify and understand just your behavior. So if this is going on with your staff, and your staff says something, but this is not the time to be owner, it’s not the time to be manager, it’s not the time to be reader, you have to identify what role you need to be for that person. In that moment. If you don’t mind me, going off a little bit of a tangent. When I work with owners. It’s the difference between being a consultant with a counselor, a coach, a critic, or cheerleader to your people. And they all have value to them. They all it’s just determining which one is going to serve me best in the sense that it serves them best to improve their thinking.

Chris Baran 48:41
Yeah, yeah. And that’s one of your books that you have as well. So, you know, that’s,

Jay Williams 48:47
I haven’t read. It is about I haven’t read that recently. I have to take you take your word. And say that, but thank you. Yes, yes, it is. Because it’s fundamentally true. And I think it stands the test of time.

Chris Baran 49:06
Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting. I. It took me like a read and I have been, I think it’s 50, whatever. 5354 years, we’ve been married, but it took me 40 years to figure out. Am I supposed to listen? Or am I supposed to solve the problem? And and she said, No, it’s just so I’ll often start with Am I okay, am I supposed to listen now? Okay, good. I’m listening, all yours. So I think the husbands and wives that are out there.

Jay Williams 49:37
I hope they don’t lose that. I mean, if we could pause there for what you said, because again, I think it’s highly relevant in your marriage. It’s really relevant. Whether you’re doing a consultation and the chair, whether someone’s sharing a conversation with you someone’s upset, is that first of all, congratulations. On the fifth. I’m I don’t want to assume Same same person, same marriage.

Chris Baran 50:02
Yes. Same person. Yeah, only one person will take me. I,

Jay Williams 50:06
well, I think you’ve been in this industry and just round long enough to know I was talking to someone two weeks ago. They said, Yes, the same person. But we were divorced for seven years. And then we remarried. So there’s all kinds of criteria. Yeah, that goes with that. I think if people could pick up your point that you said, and they write this down is do you want me to respond? Or do you want me to listen? That is a question that could serve you well, because you might have an employee come in, right? Or you could have a client in the chair that trip and just tell them hey, just so that I know, did you want me respond? Or do you want me to listen? And that’s something that I’ve learned with my wife now is going big. Do you want me to respond or you listen in? I was guessing before. And I was so young, you know? And now she’s just like, No, no, I want to respond. Sometimes she’s like, I just need to blow off some steam out Navy advice. And so once again, that’s an example of feedback. It’s information and data to improve my performance for that person. So I hope it’s people listening, you know, we’re moving around in the conversation. However, they’re they’re not mutually exclusive concepts. All these things feed together.

Chris Baran 51:20
Yeah. Yeah. And you, you said two really interesting words that I out of all that there’s only two. Thank you. All of that. No, there was only two. I mean, I don’t know if you saw I was daydreaming the rest of the time? No. Well, there’s one of them. I mean, first of all, I don’t want to what you said was truly profound. And I, but it was the fact that you used criticism, as one of the words that your job as a coach is, but then you talked about the word feedback. And just I found that there’s sometimes flowery ways that you can work around like, I’m going to give you some constructive criticism, and but some, still, when you come up to me, and yet I’m, I suffer from impostor syndrome. And as soon as somebody says to me, could you give you some constructive criticism? I keep going, well, whatever they do wrong. Why would I miss out? What did I do? And, and yet, but yet I respond better to feed back now. Is that just me? How would you how would you advise people in leadership positions or just in general, to phrase how they want to give something, somebody that they might not want to listen to? Yeah. Or may or may not? Chris,

Jay Williams 52:39
I so appreciate the nuances that you’re going to because words carry weight, and you just gave a prime example. And for some reason, you know, we felt as though nobody likes criticism, right? So what will we do it we’ll put an adjective in front of it, it’ll be constructive. And it changed nothing. Actually, they did studies they measure people’s blood pressure levels, when they asked the group to give feedback, and to ask for feedback. And it rose their levels exactly the same. So we have a really Yeah, we have this physiological response are ready to the word. And that’s why when this it’s actually a workshop that I do. It’s called the F bomb. It’s the word that begins with F ends with K and has a C between the two letters. And I asked people to guess I could see by your face where you’re going. It’s feedback. Yeah, it’s feedback. It’s been Yeah, yes, fire truck works as well, however, and when people are looking at change, I’m not a change management expert. However, in the beginning of the process, I have gotten involved and they said, Where will we start? And I want to start with what people know, think and feel so that before we do anything, so what how did they define change is one of the things but is there another word that we could use, because what connotations are linked to it? And that’s why with feedback, I just, if I could just switch it in our culture is just information and data. So Chris, you know, if I said, and we established a culture when he talked about trust, and I just said, Yeah, I just want to share, like some information and data that I got that I think will enhance your performance, you know, not only with your peers, but maybe with the management team, or even with your your clients. You know, I think you’re like yeah, you know, bring it on, Jay. So there is no judgment. There’s just information data now what you do with that can determine whether it benefits you or not. So I think what you said I hope the listeners were listening is looking at the words and the weight that they carry. And so when you talk about that the credit, I don’t know there’s a great it’s a great speech for anyone’s listening And Roosevelt gave this speech. It’s called The Man The arena is with the speeches. And so obviously you and I weren’t born yet, Chris, when that came No, yes. Yeah. So I was

Chris Baran 55:13
even born later. Yes. You? Yeah. Is the mom always liked you best? Yeah.

Jay Williams 55:19
Okay, so we started bringing it, okay, these aren’t trauma points for you. But not that I’m certainly not going to read the whole thing. I’m just gonna read the first few sentences, and I think everyone will get it. And in this speech, he said, It’s not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of good deeds have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who’s actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who airs who comes up short again and again, because there’s no effort without error, and shortcoming. So I won’t read the whole thing. I think it shifted my perspective. I don’t want to be a critic, I’m going to be the guy sitting on the sidelines, not taking any risk. How often I mean, if you and I could be real, like we both you know, speak on stage, you’d have much larger audiences, you know, of course, and for much more money. So

Chris Baran 56:19
yeah,

Jay Williams 56:20
yeah, it’s a chosen seven now. Yes, yeah. You know, people will share this feedback. And they’re the same feet, people who go, Oh, I could never speak, it’s my fear. And yet there, although critique you is, you know, you get up there. And so if you can shift your thinking about feedback, for me, it’s information, data, improve my performance, I get excited, I get excited. Let me give an example I, you know, I, I don’t boast about my failure, but I’ve learned a lot from it. And I’ve, you know, quote, unquote, if you have common definition, have several things that will qualify as failures. They weren’t really to me, but one of them was, late last year, in the fall of last year, I’ve been working with someone I had met. And so I did something remotely with their team via zoom. And they said, Hey, I’d like for you to work with the leadership team. And we had a call on the second call, they said, you know, this is going to be our last call, and they stood up. Tell me about that. They said, This feels a little bit too much like therapy. And, you know, was I heard sure, because my intent was to help, right. And this was something that it’s about what I’m passionate about my belief system. And so, you know, I listen, for anyone that’s listening, you know, I’m still human like you. I want you to love me to like me, you know those things. And so, you know, as I thought about it, I thought, Well, wait a second where things go wrong. I asked him for feedback. They gave it to me, okay, that worked out fine. They shared the feedback. I didn’t like, I went, aha, because I’ve gotten feedback before you didn’t bother me when they go, Jay, you are great. You really helped us out, right. So interestingly enough, Chris is on a Thursday, and I was bummed. I mean, for anyone listening, I still take that personal because I tried to be self aware and self adjust. And if I didn’t spot that, what else am I missing? Right? Just to be real with you. On Monday, I have a call. And it happened to be a group of 12 people and they said, hey, you know, listen, I got some feedback. I want to check in with you guys. I was fired on Thursday. And the reason is, is they say it feels like therapy, Chris, everyone smile, they thought, oh my god, I’m gonna get fired by 12 people simultaneously. You know, like, here’s the app we’re looking for. I said, You guys are smiling. So, you know, tell me a little bit. They all kind of knowingly said, yeah, it does feel like therapy. And they said, We like it. And they said, how do you define therapy, and they said, we have a problem, we talk about it. And there’s a solution to it. This is what we love about the exchange. And it really drove home the point that feedbacks, just information and data to improve my performance for that person. If I changed my whole approach, I would have lost those 12 them to my gift was to identify and understand and adjust my behavior. And so where I can’t say hey, this, this feels like therapy, or you know, I am not going to do something like that. I will let them know that there is a component that psychology and people often intertwine psychology and therapy and I just want to differentiate. So I said, Well, what can I learn from this? And this is where all the emotions began to dissipate for me, because it’s like, how can I learn from this and it’s not an indictment for me. And by the way, there were people who had therapy they had a positive experience, right? So that’s what they were linking to this. There’s people have a bad experience. Now we’re identifying problems. We didn’t fix this, we probably won’t be able to fix that. So I hope I strung that together. Well, feedback, information data to improve your performance. If you can remove the emotion and the need to justify whether it’s right or wrong. That was another thing, the initial path I went down was, well, I told them that it was psychology and that right, I began to rationalize and defend and explain. And I was operating, though that was the truth. It was their truth. And here’s what I’ve learned. There’s their truth. And there’s the truth. Sometimes they’re the same. Not always. Not always. Yeah.

Chris Baran 1:00:25
I think that the, the example is so profound. And I want to relate that back to something that happened to me just last week, where if somebody wouldn’t have given me the therapy, I would have got no, I would have gotten nowhere. And it was with my coach who we, you know, whether it’s therapy, or coaching or business, or whatever it is, he has the ability to share with me the things when you know, and some people call it processing. Some people call it clearing when you have some people call it a yuck berry that’s in the back of your mind that holds you back from getting your success and being who you truly want to be. And it isn’t until somebody has the skill to bring up that Yuck, bury, to process to clear that thought away so you can move on. And it was interesting. I didn’t think I had that many, or I didn’t think it was that bad. But he said, Can I stop the meeting right where we’re at right now. And you said, he said you have a command thought that is stuck in your brain? And then he asked everybody was okay, if it was we moved on with this? And I said, Yeah, it’s perfectly fine. And and he said, you you had you said, trying to remember back to exactly what my phraseology is, because he got me to change it. I’m trying to make it better, I have to make them I have to make it better. And so he helped to clear that I won’t go through the process. But he helped to clear that thought and to readjust what my command phrase was, that was in my in my brain. And we find a finally got me to reorganize it, it took me a while to change the words of those from, I just need to make it better into I deserved to have the choice of when to make it better. Because I’m always on that perfectionist side that always wanted to go there. But I, I had to change the phrase that I keep saying, in order to do that and want to spin that around full circle is that probably what some of those people needed in that group was the clearing that they were getting, and they probably didn’t like the results. And that is again, just an opinion. And we knows what those who like but I just think that for myself, I I like when I can when that can clear me so I can actually get to a next level up if it’s only a centimeter or two. So, you know, it’s a great you got my hat’s off for helping me. I’m

Jay Williams 1:02:59
sorry, I didn’t mean to wrap it. I just I hope the audience is listening, because it’s really a great example of your coach or the parole board when she said,

Chris Baran 1:03:12
Yeah, I’ve only got 30 more days. Yeah, glad to hear all the way out.

Jay Williams 1:03:15
It’s a great example of his primary function was to improve your thinking. And by giving you new and different thinking, that was his gift, it wasn’t knowledge. And I think for people listening, especially for someone, let’s just say you’re chronologically wiser than you know. We get hardwired though, right? That we have these beliefs that we’ve had year after year after year. And so I love that you shared it with the audience that even at the point that you’re at that there’s the neuroplasticity of the brain to change. And I think it was up until like 1982 three or so that we thought we didn’t know that there’s a neuroplasticity that there is so I when someone said, hey, that’s just the way I am. We thought okay, that’s the end. And what we found is that that’s actually the beginning now. And so I love that you share with people even in the work that you do, and as many people as you speak to so that we can all become victim of this. If people would make this note something that really changed my thinking to is I realize not all my thoughts are true. Yeah, it was just unlike what you just had. It’s a thought and sometimes I have to bet that I got a text from someone late last night. I was like, WTF, like, I’m just trying to be nice. And their response. I was like, um, where did I go Chris? Right. Yeah. And then I just, I go, yeah, the thought and by the way, we’ve been texting back and forth. They would have been shocked if I responded to the way I thought and so having the flexibility like you did to go there with them, and go you know what, let me just re examine my thoughts. There’s a great example. There’s a gentleman, Adam Grant. And he’s not. He’s, he’s a thought leader. But he’s right up there. He’s at the University of Penn. And he posted something two days ago, that was really interesting. He said, we often look at people, and if the people they hang out with don’t measure up to our standards or theirs, we always say, You know what, you could do better, you need to raise your standards. He said, You know, you could also look at that person and go with a compassionate individual, that they don’t have some of these filters in judgment, and that they will spend time with anyone. And I thought, it just validated what I learned in life, that things are what they are, they hit that person standing in the group with those people. It is what it is, it’s your thinking that determines it. On the one hand, you’d like yeah, I was thinking about who my boys hang out with. And that’s a reflection of them. I never thought that, you know, what, are they just altruistic people that don’t have the same filters I do. And that, you know, they’re willing to spend time with anyone because they see a different value. So I, you know, to get back to the conversation that you had, and for the listeners, you know, at any age, we still can fall victim to this or succumb to it. And used a great word is that it’s a choice. You said that those were your exact words isn’t a choice. And that’s what I’ve learned. Last night, I had a choice. You had a choice in that moment. You said, I’m going to choose, and I think for human beings is that we get a little bit lost or disconcerted when we feel so we don’t have control. I think that’s what people are struggling with. Now, they don’t control their circumstances. We control our thinking and how we perceive those circumstances. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Baran 1:06:55
And I think that right there says it all if anybody that’s out there listening right now. I think what you do need to do is just is your books are there on Amazon? Yeah. Yeah,

Jay Williams 1:07:05
they are both books are. That sounded very arrogant, right? I mean, I that just, you know, boastful. Yeah, there’s more than one I could have said, yes. That ego, yeah.

Chris Baran 1:07:20
But you know, you can only read one at a time, but they should buy both and get them in. And I don’t mean that as I do mean it as a sales plug. Because I think if they’ve been listened to you for the last hour, and and you didn’t take away something, then you weren’t we weren’t listening or weren’t open. But and I know that people that are on there are the people that come to this one are and and I know that this versus that better thinking and leaving your mark about thinking skills, etc. Those are two books that you should have. If you’ve at all, like what’s going on here, you should definitely jump on Amazon and and get those books because I you know, I can’t thank you enough. And I I would be I wanted to get this out right away, because I want to go to my to my our rapid fire questions. But I just want to make sure that people know of those of those books and get them.

Jay Williams 1:08:10
I appreciate that. Can I just rapid fire stuff before you do? I just want to add, for those of you who do buy the book, I think people twice once for buying it and second time if they read it, so I’m not judging. I just want to tell you that 100% of the profits of the book, go towards helping human traffic, not helping it I’m sorry, it’s doing fine on its own. Let me differentiate, going tweeting, stopping. Yeah, I’m fighting human trafficking. And so there’s just something in the area that someone brought to my attention at church probably about about nine years ago, and I thought it was in some third world country and realize it’s in our backyard. And so yeah, I just want to tell you is that you’re, you’re immediately leaving your mark when you do that, because 100% of the profit. So I’m sorry to interrupt you. But I did want to add that

Chris Baran 1:09:06
point, well deserved point well deserved. And so but if people want to get a hold of you, and if they want to chat, find out how to get you to at a speaking event or whatever. Where would they go? Yeah,

Jay Williams 1:09:20
so you guys, I’ve tried to make it easy. You can go to the J Debussy o.com. So just tha JW co.com. And there’s actually if you want to reach out and I’m open to all conversations, I reach return to all calls and emails within 24 hours. So please, please know that yeah, so you can schedule time there’s a calendar. So if you just want to connect, you say hey, I just want to chat through see if it makes sense to have a second conversation, comments, feedback, I value all of that. There’s this thing called social media has a view

Chris Baran 1:10:01
Hi, my name is Chris. I, I’ve heard I’ve heard tell. There’s a rumor

Jay Williams 1:10:06
out there. Yeah. So for those of you who you know, and I think you can relate to this, everyone’s trying to be different in the exact same way, I don’t fault them, because I don’t know that I figured it out. So if you go there, you can go Jay Williams go to both Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram. And I’ve tried to respond to the human beings attention span now. So there’s going to be the short 15 second, just thoughts that hopefully trigger conversation for you. So those would be a J. J. Y. Williams CEO. And that’s Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn, and others a YouTube page. I’m getting help, Chris, to be honest with you, if I see him a little slow. Now I know it’s important. I do. I’m not minimizing it by any means. But I know that that’s important as well. And you may need to edit this last part out, but it’s on tick tock to well, you may just say on

Chris Baran 1:11:09
tick tock. Yeah, we may listen, we’re Reverend Wait, wait, we’ll get to the questions. I’m about to ask him. You know, whether it’s

Jay Williams 1:11:16
okay. Fire away. Thank you. Yeah, that shameless plug.

Chris Baran 1:11:21
Okay, so it is kind of rapid fire stuff. So we just talk at the top of your head now. And I know whether it’s psychology numbers or whatever, there’s still a creative process what but what turns you on in the creative process? I

Jay Williams 1:11:38
think when people have conflicting perspectives, it’s I don’t confrontation? I don’t know that that’s necessary. I think. confrontation? I don’t know that that’s necessary. I think conflict is conflicting thoughts and perspectives. So what turned conflict is conflicting thoughts and perspectives. So what turns me on is when we’re having a conversation, and people ask a question or challenge, it just pushes for deeper thinking, and respect if love it, challenge, what

Chris Baran 1:12:12
stages

Jay Williams 1:12:14
what really getting excited. Draw to me, when they have alternate challenge, pushes for deeper thinking. And I really get excited when I meet someone, it’s intellectually a draw to me, when they have all I would stifles it for me is these comments what we’ve done it this way for 18 years? Or you know what, why change now? Or I wouldn’t be very good at that. It, it really is a rub for me, because I’m not asking you to change as much as I’m asking you to evolve and grow. And I think for anyone the work that we do today, here’s the deal, is it for me to be effective, you’ve got to care more than me about what we’re doing. And when you share comments like well, this is the way it’s I’ve been doing it for 18 years, I’m this age, I’ll never be good at that. That stifles I think in organizations, people still lack of receptivity to alternate perspective thinking.

Chris Baran 1:13:25
Yeah, good words. things in life that you dislike the most.

Jay Williams 1:13:31
The thing I dislike, from a food perspective, it’s going to be liver and green peas. In just full transparency pretentiousness, whether it’s in their restaurant, a resort or a person that bothers May, I have something that’s new that’s bothering me, is when there’s a lack of reciprocity with people. So they want you to be really sensitive to their needs, yet they’re not willing to be sensitive to your need to adjust to their needs. People want you to be flexible, yet they won’t be flexible with you and how we get to that stability. So it’s a newfound pet. peeve. Like I work my paws, as well, like, I don’t hate pets, a new pet peeve? Yeah, I just want to differentiate. Yeah, I’m seeing that it’s just not this reciprocity in society. But what I want from you, you’re willing to get to me? Yeah.

Chris Baran 1:14:33
And what do you love most in life? What is it that you love most in life?

Jay Williams 1:14:37
I love kindness. A friend had a birthday party and I just saw these people and when you see the best part of humanity, people are kind and thoughtful and generous, not you know so much with money, generous with their time with their attention. I love that Mike, one of the things I’m getting to that Point. I’m assuming that you’re over 30. Chris, is that is just

Chris Baran 1:15:06
barely adjust. Yeah, yeah, maybe

Jay Williams 1:15:08
you can integrate early. Okay. Yeah, it works well for you, though nobody could tell that you’re aging there is. I think he can relate to this where the similar spot in life that what makes us happy is the things that money can’t buy. And it’s usually things like kindness, a hug, humor, lightness, I feel old giving you these response. I sound like someone’s 104 years old. Except stress. You

Chris Baran 1:15:38
shouldn’t get but it’s extra. If you just want if you just want to hold, just hold my rope, my rocker, my walker, they’re saying we have we’ll be using both most difficult time in your life.

Jay Williams 1:15:54
All right, you can almost get me a cry, I’m going to answer instantly. And then maybe it’s another conversation. There was a time I’ve been married 34 years certainly not, you know the length you have. However, we may have encountered some things, you know, where you have seasons, that just they’re not. If everything’s good, they’re not great. Let’s just put it that way. And there’s a period of time that my wife and I were going through a season and I realized one of my core values was being challenged. And just us navigating through, it was the hardest time and it was the best time for us. It hit reset. And there’s some misunderstandings there too, right about our values and how we define them. And it was really the hardest time because I grew up in a situation where my mom was married four times, she wasn’t married to my father. And failure to me is no disrespect to anyone’s out there. I’m really just talking about my situation was if I didn’t make my marriage and my family. So there’s a great deal at stake. And so I was really blessed in that situation to be married to someone that, you know, we’re going to talk about every option and how to fix this. It’s just divorce is not one of them. So anything you want to talk about that’s included. That was an Oprah moment. He almost got me tear up. I didn’t. Because sometimes impact there you go, here’s

Chris Baran 1:17:21
Oprah. Okay, I don’t have her money either. That’s

Jay Williams 1:17:27
disappointing. Look, under my chair, something.

Chris Baran 1:17:32
Proudest moment of your life.

Jay Williams 1:17:35
proudest moment of my life is I’ve always had this insecurity. I didn’t finish high school, I moved out when I was 16. And I lied. That’s why I just wasn’t forthcoming about a lot of things in my life. And part of it was my lack of education. And you know, it seems like the greatest moments, go back to my wife, as you know, we talk about it, but it’s a recruiter, she was recruiting a group of eight people were going to do a project at Microsoft. And, you know, she would tell me about the project and the project, I was doing a leadership program for globally 1000 of their managers. And she was talking about the content she goes, this is stuff you would love, and you would absolutely be great at. And I said, Yeah, a little bit outside, you know, above my paygrade, because I don’t think so. And so she was telling me about some of the candidates, and some of them graduated the top of their class at Harvard and Yale, they’re being very specific. And she said, Hey, you can do this, I’m talking to these people. And they said, Listen, I love you and have a great deal of respect for you. And I never want you to jeopardize, you know, your reputation. And she goes, I’m not with you. And so she actually put me on the phone with the skies written to New York Times Best Selling by the way, this has nothing to do with me. It’s just my appreciation, and shared the stage with presidents and you know, been Bill Gates house on multiple occasions with the top 100 CEOs. So we get on the phone, I’m nervous as can be, because this is going to shine the light on my very insecurity. And so we talk and you know, about an hour and say, I’m gonna ask you one final question. And, you know, I didn’t even know how I’d done at that point. He said, Can you change the world? And I don’t know if you know this, but sarcasm is my mechanism. And

Chris Baran 1:19:37
my sure you’re not Canadians.

Jay Williams 1:19:40
If it’s a compliment than Yes, I am. Yeah. I see I can’t believe this boils down to contest question. And he goes in here since he humor and he said yes, it does. Can Yeah. I said I gotta tell you because so much is at stake. You just got I know who I am. I don’t know if I can change the world, but I believe I can change myself. And I believe wholeheartedly the change in me what I’ve seen can yield a change at least one other person. I get goosebumps as I tell the story he goes to want to see in Seattle. And so I was picked as one of these people. And the proudest moment was having someone marrying someone. And I, I wish this for everybody who believes in you more than you believe in yourself. And for anybody who’s listening, you know, maybe you’ve seen me speak or you’re thinking about you go out, you know, this guy has insecurities. I think you can relate to we’re all human. Yes, those things still exist. And there will still be moments and situations that expose them. And what can get you through it, certainly, you’re thinking more often that you need someone outside yourself. And you know, if you’re a person of faith, which you know I am and where you have someone who believes in you more than you believe in yourself. So that was my proudest moment. I wish I could give it to you a little bit cleaner. But that was it.

Chris Baran 1:21:08
Now, I’ll tell you, that’s an the one thing that I know about Oprah is when there’s a pivotal moment that happening in the talk, he stopped there. Because that was truly profound. And I just Jay, I just want to say, thank you so much for being on here, sharing your wisdom, sharing your thoughts, sharing your vulnerability was, it was just a real pleasure. But I also want to go back and and ask the first question again. Are you happy that?

Jay Williams 1:21:44
I am, I think for people and I’ll wrap up this way on the stage, we’ve all witnessed people on stage and listen, it may be within the industry or their comedian or you know, as music, and then you meet them one on one. It’s not the same experience. You know, I don’t know if you’ve had that experience. And I am and I appreciate you because you know, I saw you on stage and certainly enamored. I think there’s a certain humor amongst other things and lightness to things that we share amongst other things. And then, you know, for you to ask, and then for you to be that same person on stage. It’s not persona, it’s who you are. Yeah, I would say at this point, I’m very, very glad that I got that opportunity. And now I can experience with my friend Chris Solomon said about you that 100% agreement 100% agreement, so I appreciate ya.

Chris Baran 1:22:43
Oh, thank you. Well, as I said before, make sure you pass on to Chris and say hi, and that was thinking about him and so on. And I’m proud of him. But I’m also proud of you pal for everything you’ve done. And I know that what I love about doing this particular podcast is learning that we have so much in common and all of it is about is about learning from what we do and and helping to change the world one person at a time and you certainly do that. So one more time. Thank you so much. Thank you, my friend. It means a lot to me.