ep76 – Winn Claybaugh

The tables are turned for this week’s guest. For 26 years he has been the one doing the interviews. I can’t hope to live up to that standard but we’ll manage. He is an author, a school owner, a motivational speaker, a philanthropist, and an awards show host. He has won the NAHA Hall of Leaders, and American Salon said he is one of the five industry leaders who has revolutionized education. He is the Dean and Co-Founder of Paul Mitchell Schools. Please welcome to Headcases: Winn Claybaugh!

• 4:51 Unconventional wisdom in education and the beauty industry
• 18:51 Podcasting, interviews, and learning from others
• 40:35 Finding the right salon culture, and backbone vs wishbone
• 54:40 Work-life balance, and prioritizing quality over quantity

Complete Transcript

Chris Baran 0:00
How great would it be to get up close and personal with the beauty industry heroes? We love and admire and to ask them how did you learn to do what you do? I’m Chris Baran, a hairstylist and educator for 40 plus years, and I’m inviting all our heroes to chat and share the secrets of their success.

Well, welcome to another session of Headcases. And did you ever admire someone from afar and wonder if they’re as gracious and as kind as you perceive them to be? And probably the press has made them out to be. And you wonder if and when you do meet them, will they be? Well, I just did and he is. Today’s guest is an author, school owner, motivational speaker, philanthropist and award show host. As a matter of fact, he’s been a four time host of NAHA. To drop a few of his public speaking clients names, they include Southwest Airlines, McDonald’s, John Paul Mitchell systems, Vidal Sassoon, Hyatt Hotels and Resorts, and Professional Beauty Association. NAHA awarded him into the NAHA Hall of Leaders. American Salon said he was one of the five industry leaders who helped revolutionize education. Thirst Project honored him with the Vision Awards and Friendly House gave him the Humanitarian of the Year, he’s received the Ellis Award Medal of Honor, he’s the author of “Be Nice or Else” and “Be Nice Revolution”. 25 years ago, he started the Masters audio series, featuring 325 top leaders and icons. Now this is probably the giveaway for you: He is the dean and co founder of Paul Mitchell Schools. So let’s get into this week’s Headcases and the forever positive and nice Mr Winn Claybaugh. Winn. I can’t say how much fun this is going to be. Because, you know, there’s so many people what I love about it. I know you do podcasts all the time. I mean, before you just said did you just got off a 110 minutes ago, so you know what it’s like. And I think what I find so intriguing about doing them is that I get to meet so many people that you know, I know passing the shows we’ve been stages across from one another. But you know, to finally meet people and to find out that we’re all just loving to the industry and and it’s just a real pleasure to have you on here, buddy. I’ve been an admirer of yours for for years for everything that you do your books and so on. So I just want to say welcome to head cases.

Winn Claybaugh 2:45
Well, thank thanks so much, Chris. And I’ve been a fan of you so much. So that believe it or not, we featured you in February of 1997 with my masters podcast. So you and I’ve been doing this for a while. Yeah, well,

Chris Baran 3:00
I you know, I have to say that because that was with Kitty Victor and God bless her, you know, a little prayer for Kitty there. But it was I have to say, you know, that she was so gracious. And I screwed up that first video we did the first masters one that she didn’t tape. And it was so bad. I did it so bad that it was one of the first interviews that I’d ever done for something like that, and I screwed it up so bad. And then she was kind enough said, okay, good luck, and I’ll come down and I’ll go to wherever you are. And I’ll do it again. And I don’t think I did a much better job on that. Now hopefully I’ve improved, but I just want to say that, you know, it was a pleasure doing, I love what you guys did. And I think I’m still a little embarrassed that if I get labeled by that one that I did, because I think I was trying to be funny, and it wasn’t.

Winn Claybaugh 3:52
Well, you know what we’ve all done those types of presentations thinking, Oh, I could have done so much better. The good news is we’re still here, right? Yeah, we’ve done something right, that we’re still here. For some reason, people are still listening to us. So you got to feel grateful for that.

Chris Baran 4:07
Well, you know, you know, I always like to start on on these just because I don’t know who would be out there that wouldn’t know who you are. But just what what I think is important. Some people don’t know how these people the icons, the people that they see on stage, the people that see in press all the time, their hair story. So give us just a quick rundown on your hair story and how you got into it, etc.

Winn Claybaugh 4:32
Absolutely. Again, I’m super honored when I got this message that Chris Baran wants to interview you. I can’t tell you what that day was like for me. I’m a bit of a fan and a little bit starstruck right now. So we’ll stumble through this a little bit. Okay. My hair story. First of all, I’m not a hairdresser. I’ve never been a hairdresser. I started my career believing I opened up I first salon 40 years ago and quickly got into the school of business, I had a couple of salons. And in that experience of trying to, to interview and hire and attract and retain stylists, I found that after spending a year in school, they weren’t at all ready and prepared to compete in what I thought was the standard of being a wonderful hairdresser. And so we thought that the best way to train them would be to train them ourselves. And so I immediately got into the school of business sometimes being super naive, is the best quality. You don’t you don’t know what you don’t know. And so you just kind of blow by all of those. Those stop signs all of those roadblocks that said, You know what, you’re off course and this is never gonna work. And I just blew past all of those. And I love what I was doing. I love to hustle. I love that word hustle. For some reason people today think that there’s some bad connotation or bad meaning with the word hustle. And, and I at that time in my career, and I’m still doing it today. I still hustled quite a bit. But I fell in love with the beauty industry. I fell in love with hairdressers. And fortunately hairdressers fell in love with me. By the way, I have no, no college education. I barely and I mean, barely graduated from high school. Apparently they want you to show up. I told them that I was busy. But you know that the cool thing about the beauty industry is that nobody has ever turned me down. Nobody has ever said no to me. Nobody’s ever said well, you’re not a hairdresser. So you’re not qualified. You don’t have the license, so you’re not qualified. I have just found from day one, I just have found that the professional beauty industry embraces people embraces what I now call unconventional wisdom. You know, conventional wisdom is what we already know. So if you’re sitting in an audience thinking, Well, I don’t really care what that speaker has to say, because they’re not a hairdresser. Well, that’s conventional wisdom. And that’s what you already know what’s going to take us to the next level is what we don’t know. And that’s unconventional wisdom. You

Chris Baran 7:08
know, we bear, you know, the one thing I say we were we were chit chatting before we started the podcast for people listening and watching right now, that and we were bantering back and forth. And we’re doing a little one leg up on each other. And I’d say, and I’m not to try to be leg up, but you know, you at least finished grade 12 or whatever they call it down here in Canada. I, you know, I, I just I was I was that kid that didn’t do well in school. And you know, I’m not going to put it down to when I left I always say I thought I was thought I was because I wasn’t smart. I thought it was stupid. But and I think that’s where part of what we bear really close to one another. What we love is is the fact of education. And when I got out and I started to jump into education, I realized that I wasn’t stupid. I wasn’t not that I wasn’t smart. It’s just that the education system, I’m not gonna put any blame on teachers, but the system that we had of training people really was not, it’s not really set up to really help to train people to be creative and move forward, etc. And I and I, I love the fact of how you got into the education part. So I want to do two parts here. And I’m I sometimes will mix things up in here. I want to talk just a little bit about how that came about where you and John Paul got together and and started the schools that you have number one. But then number two is also how you got because your public speaking or and you you talk all you know, you’re always speaking to people about excuse me, you’re always speaking to people about how positive attitude attitude mindset. And I think that’s probably what I got from what you were saying there. You know that unconventional wisdom is just the fact of, you know, just people having a proper mindset when it comes to learning and education. Could you just don’t really talk to that.

Winn Claybaugh 9:12
Absolutely what you said that you grew up feeling that maybe you weren’t smart. And in our schools from from day one, the foundation is not we’re not asking the question, How smart are you? We’re asking the question of how are you smart, because we have different intelligence, we have different skill sets. And we learn differently, too. So sometimes when you’re in an education class, there’s a talking head up there. So if there’s 20 people in that class, maybe only three of them are learning anything because of the style because of the content and the context of how the information is being shared. And so, you know, we learned from from the very, very beginning of opening up our schools, that there are multiple intelligences and we had to be addressing all of them. Yeah, Again, I got into the school business because I felt like, like there was there was something lacking. And that’s not to put anybody down. That’s not to put down the types of educational institutions that existed at the time. But just things as simple as, like the dress code and beauty schools was everybody was in scrubs. And I never understood that, like, why aren’t they dressing the part? Now? They’re not going to wear scrubs, you know, they’re not going to dental school, they’re not going to wear this in the salon, why shouldn’t they look and dress and act like a salon professional from day one? From the very, very beginning, rather than calling them students, we came up with the term future professionals. Yeah. And we’ve been using that. And now I’m really proud to say that almost every brand and networking that’s in the, in the beauty school business, is using that same term future professionals. So in the very, very beginning, we started upgrading even the facilities, we created facilities that in Believe it or not, were nicer than some of the salons in our in our community. And so lots of lots of decisions and choices that we made very, very in the beginning stages that have served us well all this time. But now if you, my gosh, sure. I’m saying on a podcast, I was just gonna say to you, if you quote me on this, I’ll deny that I said it. But I’m gonna say it publicly that, you know, again, I started in the salon business had, I only stayed in the salon business, meaning had I not gotten into the school business, I don’t think that I would be in the professional beauty industry today. And I only been a salon owner, I think that I would have become disillusioned, I think I would have gotten frustrated. And what truly helped me fall in love with the professional beauty industry was in working with teachers was and working with beauty school instructors was in working with future professionals with working with students. That’s what ignited my passion. It’s that next generation, which I just absolutely fell in love with.

Chris Baran 11:59
Yeah, you know, when, you know, reflecting on so many levels here, because I feel so close to what you’re saying. Because when I got into the industry, and then, you know, I won an award and in a company came up to me and said, Hey, do you want to teach on stage and I thought, oh, big shot, look at me, I must be really good. Got on stage and then discovered, I didn’t know diddly about how to teach. And so I went through the industry for quite a while just being a comedian. You know, nobody learned anything. But the point, I think that you’re saying is, I think that’s what really changes us. And that’s what really helped me along the industry for so many years. And whether you call it changing or evolution or whatever that is, but what I want to know is how, what was it like for you, you know, salon owner, got into education, business, and then all of a sudden, now you’re sought after? For just speaking and and was it the book that started it? What what what made that education side flourish? For you?

Winn Claybaugh 13:08
It’s such a great question. You know, Tony Robbins talks about being motivated through inspiration or through desperation. And for me back then it was pure desperation, I became a motivational speaker. Why? Because I was so desperate and so miserable in my own life, that the only way that I could gain information and knowledge was to have a whole bunch of mentors. So I was the student in the audience, listening to wonderful speakers and mentors and authors. And how I validated all the information that I was taking in was to talk about it. So if I attended a three day retreat with somebody like a Louise Hay, or a John Bradshaw, that you better believe that the next salon staff meeting was me trying to repeat everything that I just learned in that retreat. And that process of sharing information. Hey, you guys, this is what I learned last weekend from Marianne Williamson. It was that process of me trying to share with my team, what I was personally going through what I was trying to learn what I was trying to improve in my own life, guess what they needed to hear it too. And that process of sharing information eventually turned into a career where people are like, you know, you’re really good at sharing information. I know that it’s it’s a gift that I have, and I’m grateful for that gift. It’s through grace, that for some reason, when I when I when I share information, and I use humor, I love that you use humor that helps people learn and grow and take in information. And so I know that that’s a gift that I was given. And, and I’m grateful for that. So what I do is I take in information and I and I want to turn around and immediately share it with other people. You know, what do they say it’s the it’s the person who’s doing that the teaching who’s doing the speaking that’s sharing the information that’s learning the most and so it was desperation. I needed to learn this information for me.

Chris Baran 14:58
Yeah, you know that spot on, you know, because I, there’s two things here that really I find remarkable about you is that, number one, I love the fact that you give credit to everybody that you learn from. You know, I think there’s too much in our industry where people think that they’ve got to say that here’s stuff that I come up with so good on you that you’re giving credit to the people that you actually learned the information from, I think there’s a quality that more of us need to have. And then the second part is you hit the nail on the head that it’s sometimes when you teach it the first time was when you’re really grasping it. But when you teach it for the maybe fifth, sixth or 10th time is when you truly understand it. You know, and I think that’s something that I I think that educational speakers, whether you’re in a school on a stage in a salon, that, that number one give credit. And number two is learn that you’re not going to say it perfectly right the first time, you know, and I think that’s the thing that even when it comes to learning a technique or whatever, just keep grinding, keep grinding on it, and it’ll eventually hit you and it’ll vet venture the oh, one day going, Oh, so that’s what that means. So hats off to you. What was it like when? Because, you know, again, going in, I know you do this. So I know you do your research. And, you know, you’re you probably have, you know, people that don’t do all your research for you. I’m this humbled boy who has to do my own. And I say humbled humble. That’s a town that I lived in Humboldt, Saskatchewan. And but American salon said that you were one of the five people that helped to revolutionize education. And what was that? What was that? Like? What would that what did that mean to you when they said that?

Winn Claybaugh 16:56
Well, first of all, I do all my own research and go no, I don’t, I don’t have a team of people. You better believe and I love that process. And so if I’m, if I’m, if I’m doing a presentation, and I need to, to address a topic that I’m perhaps not aware of, and I know you experienced this too, it can take, and I’m not exaggerating, it could take 100 hours of research and preparing and learning to then do a one hour presentation. If I’m doing a podcast, if I’m interviewing somebody, I’m putting at least at least 10 hours of preparation to learn about that person and to come up with the right topics and the flow. And before I then do that one hour presentation, and so I liked that part of my journey as well. The nod from American salon magazine, that was important because, again, I’m passionate about about education. If I wasn’t passionate about education, then maybe it wouldn’t mean so much that they acknowledged the fact that I do have that passion. And I do have that commitment to to that next generation. Again, put me on on stage in front of a bunch of hairdressers, I’ll do okay, but put me on stage in front of a bunch of students. And that’s where I feel that I’m at home. I think it was James Morrison who tell told told the joke. How many hairdressers does it take in the salon to teach a haircut 101 to do the cut and 99 to stand there and say, Oh, I could do that?

Chris Baran 18:31
Yeah, exactly do this. They

Winn Claybaugh 18:32
have this. They have this attitude of beginner’s luck. And beginner’s luck basically means that they don’t know it won’t work. I can walk into one of my schools with the stupidest idea. And my students are like, Yeah, let’s do it. And I just love that energy.

Chris Baran 18:47
Yeah, sometimes, isn’t it? I can’t remember who who told them who said this the very first time so I can’t give them credit. But it’s when we lose that childlike attitude of learning is that’s when our learning doesn’t stop. But it it certainly will manifest itself as as anything. So I think that what I love what you just said is just how these kids come in and they don’t know what will or won’t work. It’s just an idea. So let’s give it a go. You know, when I think we all do that at one time, and

Winn Claybaugh 19:19
Age has nothing to do with that. I was recently at a show over the summer, and I throw my presentation somebody said when I want you to meet somebody and so they dragged me to a hands on classroom. So there was like 100 mannequins heads set up, they were going to do a cutting class. They take me to the front row and there was this woman there in her 80s in her 80s on the front row. She has been a hairdresser for more than 65 years. And yet there she is still investing in education still on the front row. Still excited to be there. Still passionate, and which again is so attractive. And by the way, I know some 18 year olds who already know it all. Yeah,

Chris Baran 19:57
yeah. Bingo. bingo. Yeah, yeah. And I think that’s and I find, you know what, when I hear that, I think good, because, you know, sometimes they’ve got to think they know it all have a failure. And then that brings them, it’ll bring them hopefully bring them right back on track, as long as they’re, you know, that’s not a mindset that has been, you know, killing them for years because of it’s been influenced by somebody else. So, the you started on education, and we were talking earlier, just about, about kidney, Victor, and you and Kenny Victor had a great friendship, and you started the Master series. And you and Katie were doing, doing all of that. So I want to do two things. How did where did that come? Because you started that way before anybody else even thought of doing that? If you really thought of that, that was the podcast that was done. 25 years ago, before we really had any of this. How did that start out?

Winn Claybaugh 21:06
It was in 1995 was our first release our first issue. And your I don’t think that the word podcasts that term even existed back then. And, and by the way, we were we were recording these interviews, putting them on cassette tapes, I still have mailing them out to subscribers, I think it was 1295 a month to receive a new shoe every single month. And we had subscribers in 10 different countries. I mean, it was it was immediately successful, because you’re right, there were there weren’t a lot of people doing that. And the very first person that that we interviewed was Vidal Sassoon because we thought it Vidal says yes, to us, who’s ever going to say No, exactly like you want to be on this list with Vidal. So as soon as so of course, everybody said yes. And I have been putting out a new issue every single month, since 1995.

Chris Baran 21:53
Wow. Wow. Well, first of all, this

Winn Claybaugh 21:56
is one of the things that I enjoy the most. I think you just said it earlier that, you know, you meet people at shows and you meet people at events. And while that person is incredible, and love to get to know them, but sometimes we don’t have those opportunities. And the opportunity came about for me was, Can I interview you for my podcast? How else am I going to sit down and have a conversation with Vidal Sassoon, or with the president of Southwest Airlines or with Fran Drescher, or with Gary Sinise are with Chris Barron, hey, I really want to sit down. And let’s have a conversation that I’m going to record. And I’m going to share that interview with the masses. That’s such a great excuse, so to speak, to get to know somebody.

Chris Baran 22:36
Yeah. And you know, what I also like about it is sometimes, you know, you you, you develop a great relationship with them just spot on and they become friends. And that’s kind of missing what was or is missing? Well, however you see it in our industry, because sometimes manufacturers can separate artists and people because they think that there’s a competition in there. But as I say, We’re just bloody hairdressers are people who love our industry. And so right, right, we need to be friends and connect with one another. Do you get to connect

Winn Claybaugh 23:07
tell your story. Yeah. So I can’t remember how long ago it was. So I was probably a good five to 10 years into doing my Masters podcast and modern salon magazine, called me the Larry King of the beauty industry, because I had interviewed so many people, right? So Larry King reads that. And he calls me and he says, You need to come to my house so I can teach you how to be Larry King. No, I went to Larry’s house. And he sat down with me and spent a couple of hours. And that was just such great training, which i i Just utilized that a couple of hours ago when I was doing an interview with somebody. But I liked that because when I interviewed Trevor Sorbie, Trevor saw sir Trevor Sorbie then told me that it was because of that podcast interview that I did with him. That was that the first time that somebody had dragged out of him answers and topics that nobody has ever done before. And it was that interview that he then shared with his business partners that helped them then understand the role that he plays in their partnership. Wow.

Chris Baran 24:12
Yeah. And to quote, Larry said, Wim playball is a remarkable guy and one of the best motivational speakers in the country. So you know, you know, isn’t it funny how one little incident can bring two people together? Who might not ever have known one another? And yet, both of you won from it? Right. And I just think he won because he got to meet your number one. He won because he got some press. But you know, and I know that because, you know, we all know who he is. But you don’t often see him as somebody who would just say, Hey, let me what come to my house. Let me teach you something. You know, I just think that’s truly remarkable and you know, it It reminds me of just all the stuff that we have to we still got to just give stuff away that we’ve been given to it. There was a young kid that friend of mine, he had his whole family was trying to get into the hair business. And nobody, all the daughters wouldn’t. And the and the son did. And so Harvey approached me and said, Hey, listen, would you would you teach my son, you know, just so he knows haircutting and blah, blah, blah? And I said, Sure, send him out and stay at my house. He stayed at my house for a while. And then at the end, he just said, okay, good. Did your dad give me a check? We’ll just write out what, what do I owe you? I said, You don’t you don’t owe me anything. I don’t want any money from you. The only thing I’m going to ask is that you pass on what I gave to you to some other young kid that needs it when they need it. You know, and I think that if our whole industry would take on some of that, yes. I’m not saying that nobody should get paid. And for all the people that get paid, I get paid to. But I think that there’s times in our life when you’ve got to see an opportunity to mentor and help and, and do what you do, and then pass it on. I just I just I love. I love that story that you told

Winn Claybaugh 26:07
I have good news about that sentiment, because I am on the receiving end of or I’m witness to the receiving end of 1000s and 1000s of students that attend my schools every single year. And so I hear directly from them as we introduce them to mentors and heroes in the industry. And I’m never disappointed meaning the stories that my students share with me is that oh my gosh, I called Vivienne mackinder. And she was so wonderful to me. Oh my god, I spent an hour on the phone with candy Shaw. She was so generous to me. Oh my god, Sam Brocato was amazing. So anytime that these students do connect with people in our industry, what they hear back is, as well, this is an industry that’s full of a lot of very generous, humble people who do want to share their talents and their information. Yeah.

Chris Baran 26:58
Yeah, no, I love it. I want to jump back just to what you said, because you talked about having Vidal Sassoon. And again, God rest his soul for everything that he did in our for our business. But do you think you know, here’s one thing that worries me, and maybe you can help me see, am I on track with this or not? To me, I’ve always thought that we need to do whatever we can to help the young kids that are coming along to know where our history came from. No, this assumes in the sorbets and an Anthony and Anthony was a Moscow, Lowe’s and blah, blah, blah. What’s your Do you see that as well? Do you see that we sort of are losing? I don’t say losing our history. But I talked to so many kids that were my inspiration. My the people that were my hair heroes mentioned their name, and they don’t even know who they are.

Winn Claybaugh 27:51
What’s your take on that? No. 1,000%. And by the way, it’s not just in our industry. I was just sharing with you earlier, before we started recording. The podcast interview that I did this morning was with Taylor Hanson from Hanson brothers who had a big hit song in 1997. He was 14 years old, went to number one in 27 countries. And I asked him the question, you know, tell me about your, your musical legacy. Tell me about who you listen to. And he could rattle off, you know, I listened to this band, and my parents put played this musician. So it’s not just our industry, if you talk to any successful artist, in the entertainment industry, in the music industry, in accounting, whatever they could tell you, who paved the way. And if they can’t, they’re kind of limited. You don’t want to hear a famous musician, you know, saying, I don’t know, I don’t I don’t know who those people are. You want to know, who paved the way for you. And I think it’s a bad habit for brand new people in our industry to not do the research to not have an interest in knowing who Trevor story is. And knowing who Vidal Sassoon is. And knowing who Ruth Roche is, they have to know the history and the people who paved the way.

Chris Baran 29:07
Yeah, and this is something that I’ve said this numerous times. So if you’ve listened to listen to me say this before, it’s just because it’s real. I know that there’s so many times when people want to be more creative. And the first thing that I tell them is, don’t try to be creative first copy first. Like if you want to if you want to see something and like, that’s how I learned different techniques. Is I watched Trevor do something. Not let me rephrase that I saw him do something. I didn’t know how the hell he did it. But I had to research to figure out how the heck he did it. But I copy that tried to copy it as close as I could. And then once I figured it out, I went oh, now I know how I can stretch this. Now I know how I can push this a little little bit further and evolve it and so on. Again, as long as you give all the credit to me, that’s what that is. But I truly I think copying is a part of creativity.

Winn Claybaugh 30:12
Oh, absolutely. But as you said, to give the credit, yeah. So when I’m when I’m coaching, a brand new person entering the industry, maybe you don’t have your own work to post on your social media, but what you’re doing is you’re posting the work of your mentors. You know, one day, I’m going to be as good as a Ruth Rhodes one day, I’m going to be good like a Presley Poe. And you know, this is the person my mentor that I’m following right now. And then eventually, hey, I duplicated the work that Presley Poe posted and you know, how did it turn out and you get better and better? I remember interviewing Ruth Roche. And, you know, she’s my gosh, she’s won every major award and in the beauty industry over and over again. And I’m sure that some people assume that, you know, her first time doing a photo shoot one Nahai the first time out, and, and she said, No, the first photo shoot that she did was in the back of a Chinese restaurant in Santa Barbara, California. And I said, Ruth, can I see those photos? And she said, No, you can’t. She doesn’t share that part. You know, the part of the journey she shares or that people know about is, you know, winning over and over and over again. But as she tells her story, it’s her doing exactly what you just said, Chris, she was copying Vidal Sassoon. She was copying Trevor Sorbie. She was copying. Vivienne mackinder, she said she even tried to copy Vivienne mackinder has a British accent, you know, so that she could be super cool, like, like Vivienne mackinder. That’s another story.

Chris Baran 31:44
Ya know, I really believe in that, because it’s the way that to me when even even the copying part sets me in the creative mode, simply because it’s my therapy, you know, just try it. So you can set your mind free of just trying to figure out how things are done. But, you know, the, even when you and I communicated at the very beginning, I, there’s so many things that you have that are so profound about our industry, and when I hear you public speak about them, and when I read the articles that you you do, I really want to hit on some of those so that, that the people that are listening and watching right now, if they haven’t, that they hear it again, or if they didn’t, if they didn’t hear it, they hear it, if they didn’t hear it, that they get to understand it, if they heard it again, that we can really hammer it home with them. And, and the word culture, I think, you know, there’s always these words in our industry that we have, like everybody says, Be professional. And yet, I feel like if you just acted professional, you would be professional, but we tend to use it and not be it sometimes. And I think culture is that same kind of word it gets it gets thrown around. But what really is it? You know, and I know that you talk to that point? And how would you define it? Like what what do you think that really is? what would what what spin would you put on? Or what’s your take on that?

Winn Claybaugh 33:09
Again, a great question. And by the way, a topic that I’m super passionate about, because you’re right, it is something that has been watered down. And maybe people don’t fully understand what it means to have a culture. And by the way, you could be professional, you can look the part and have a very toxic culture within your salon. See, culture happens when two people come together. So when two people come together, there is a culture. And we have to decide what that culture looks like, and what it feels like, or it will be decided for you. And oftentimes, because by default, the culture that can exist in a salon is a culture that is toxic. It’s a culture that based on on backstabbing, and not in supporting each other. And, and there’s no there’s no team work. Well, we’re all independent here. And so so you know, we’re not, we’re not employees, and we’re independent contractors, and therefore we can’t have a culture that’s a supportive team. Well, first of all, that’s incorrect. And second of all, if that’s what you subscribe to, or if that’s what you create by default, does the customer pick up on that? Of course they do. Yeah. Does the customer give you a grace like, well, they’re independent contractors. So I’ll just put up with the fact that they don’t love and support each other. Why should the customer put up with that? They want to walk into an environment and if there’s two people working there, or 30 people working there, they want to walk in and feel like wow, these people love each other. They take care of each other because that’s what they’re trying to escape. They’re trying to escape, a boss that yells at them at work every day. They’re trying to escape perhaps a marriage that’s falling apart. They don’t want to have to walk into a salon and feel that same tension. And so that’s that’s culture and I’m very, very sad. The cific on on what it takes to create that type of a culture. What

Chris Baran 35:04
so what would you? What would you say is those things if you had to define it to 1234 points, whatever, what would you say these finds it,

Winn Claybaugh 35:13
that’s easy. And the foundation, you know, one of my favorite movies was Field of Dreams. And the main line, the main message in that building, or in that in that movie was build it and they will come. So if you’re trying to attract huge clientele, if you’re trying to attract passionate, loyal, incredible team members, you have to build a culture that will attract those types of people. And so I can tell you the mistakes that I made in the past of the mistakes, like, for example, having a team member who worked for me for years, and the best way I know how to describe her is she was weaned on a pickle, you know, the type, like sour, moody mean, and every day for years, I was thinking, you know, because, gosh, I’m a motivational speaker. I can fix her, I can change her. Guess what, three years later, she was exactly the same. So what did I do? I finally fired her. Yeah, right. And the second that I fired her, first of all, the rest of the team were like, What have you been waiting for? You know, we knew three years ago, she should have been gone. And by the way, how many good people did I lose? In the meantime? Well, I’m trying to because my ego thought, oh, I can fix and I can change her. It’s not our job to change people. So so so the second that I got rid of her, all of a sudden, we were able to attract wonderful positive people. So So you ask the question, give some very specific, I can boil it down to three basic human needs. If you want to create a healthy culture, where you attract people, people who are passionate, people who are loyal. There are three basic human needs. Number one, people need to feel safe. People need to feel safe. You know, after being in the salon business for a couple of years, this woman who worked for me in those first two years, one day, she privately pulled me aside and she said, when I want you to know that for the last 20 years, I have been in this very abusive marriage. But because of working here, for the last two years, I now have the courage to divorce this man. Wow. And I was like, huh, yeah, she’s like when I’ve been in this horrible marriage for 20 years. But for the last two years, when I come to work every day, I feel safe. I feel I feel loved. I feel like I’m making a difference. And because of that, I now have the courage to divorce this man. And that was a huge wake up call for me. Because up until that point, I thought that my only role my only responsibility as a business owner was to create a place where people come to earn a paycheck. And what she taught me was the responsibility that I have. And by the way, every person in that building has the same responsibility. It’s not just the boss’s job, we all have this responsibility to create an environment, a culture where people feel safe. And that’s, that’s the number one basic human need. A second basic need, people need to feel that they belong. 60% of people say no one has my back. And by the way, half of them are married. Mm hmm. Can you imagine that people don’t feel like they belong in their own homes. Wow, we have students who who tell us I never belonged in high school. I didn’t feel like I belonged in college, come into your upper middle school. This is the first time where I finally feel like I’m safe. And where I belong here. This is where I belong. And that’s, that’s a basic human need. Because people don’t just come work for your salon, they join your salon. Yeah, your customers don’t just spend money in your salon, they join your salon. People want something to belong to something that’s bigger than themselves. And look how oftentimes it’s the salon is the barber shop. That’s the gathering spot for the entire community. Yeah, but that’s where the community comes to, to connect with each other to solve problems, to work through therapy, right? That’s the gathering spot for the entire community. People need a place to belong, unfortunately. Sometimes it’s not the salon. It’s not the barber shop, it’s a coffee shop, you know, it’s a bookstore. Let’s, let’s reclaim that. Let’s let the salon in the barber shop be that gathering spot. And the third basic human need. People need to have a purpose. So I’m not just cutting hair here. But I’m making a difference. So yeah, as a team, yeah, we make a lot of money, but we also recycle. So we’re making a difference. As a team, we all signed up to do the cancer walk together as a team. We’re all doing that together. Because statistically 85% of consumers will change From one brand to another brand, based on whether or not you’re giving back to the community, meaning I have multiple places where I can buy a pizza, I have multiple places where I can get my hair done. I will decide where I’m going to spend my money, of course with my head based on price based on location, but I also spend money with my gut meaning Do I like you? Do I trust you? Are you just as concerned with making a difference in the community as you are with putting money into your own pocket?

Chris Baran 40:34
This episode is sponsored by the salon associate accelerator from trainers playbook.com. Are you struggling with the time and cost of associate training? Do you feel like your salon is running you will get your associates on the floor, all with 90% Less time from you. So you can get back to building your business. Get them world class design, finishing color, and client care skills they’ll use every day for the rest of their career. While you focus on realizing your vision, go to trainers playbook.com and get the salon associate accelerator. And now back to the show. Yeah, and I love that safe belong, and purpose. And really, if you really look at it’s Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, isn’t it? You know, it’s all those things that are really, really involved in what people’s human needs are, to feel that they want to be a part of the group. And, and the part that I love that you said about being charitable giving back? You know, I, you know, we have a coach for our business that that always tells us that it’s everything is what you do is based on your success is based on how much you tithe, or how much you give back? Or is what you do to give to other people besides what you’re doing just for your own wealth. And by wealth. I just mean, you know, financial, spiritual, emotional, but they that’s such great, such great advice. And so, you know, that’s, we often talk about that. So what would you say to the young kid that’s just going to look for a salon? How would they be everybody can talk culture? But how would what would you tell that kid to do? Whether they’re, you know, by kid my standards when you look at my gray hair and beard, etc? Everybody’s a kid, including you to me. So but what would you tell that kid when you’re going to find that salon that has the right culture? What would you get? Tell them to look for?

Winn Claybaugh 42:36
Again, a great question. First of all, take your time. Take your time. Of course that salon is interviewing you, but you want to interview them, so to speak. And by but by the way, I can’t think of a legitimately successful passionate salon owner that wouldn’t want a new kid as you call them. Who’s seeking a job? Who wouldn’t want a new kid to ask the question? Hey, is it okay? If I hang out here for a couple of days? So I can experience how people work around here? Can you show me that the place where I would be hanging out? Can I spend time can can you watch me as I shampoo a customer as I as I sweep hair, so that you can see me firsthand and I can experience your wonderful team here? Could I sit in on a on a staff training and be a part of that incredible experience? Because I know your salon is all about growth and learning and knowledge? Gosh, I would just like to be a fly on the wall is that is that an opportunity for me to be able to as part of my interviewing process? To help me make a decision and for you to make a decision about me? Would it be okay for me to hang out during a staff educational event? Again, I can’t think of a salon owner that wouldn’t embrace all of that. And

Chris Baran 43:54
even think about that when when you’re the owner going, what would that mean? But if you could see that kid, that young person, that new stylist, that new professional come in and do a shampoo or the way they interact, etc? What a great way for you to say oh, like the attitude, you can measure up and you can say, wow, they did a really great job. I could get them on the, you know, doing this immediately and helping to contribute financially. So it’s just a win win all the way around that. I mean, that’s such great, great advice. I want to I’m afraid that we’re going to run out of time and I’ve got so many things that I want to talk about and what I’ve seen use what I’ve seen you talk about or what I’ve heard you talk about or seen that you’ve written and I would love if you could talk to backbone versus wishbone. I just found that an incredible comparison. And I get it I think I got what you were meaning by it because it says it right there. But could you talk to that?

Winn Claybaugh 44:56
Absolutely. Wish Bone. And people use us all the time. I wish I were taller. I wish I was skinnier. I wish I had better parents. I wish I had more talent. And we work on our wishbone. And we do that because we’re comparing ourselves to other people. And what I challenge people do to do is to work on their backbone. I’ve never assumed that I’m the smartest person in a room. And by the way that used to hold me back, like I remember, I can tell you exactly where I was. And when it happened and who the person was, it was van counsel, who he’s a good friend now. And back then I barely sort of knew him. But I remember we’re at a training, we’re at an event and, and somebody asked a question, and ban raised his hand, and he gave the answer. And I’m like, gosh, that guy is so smart. I’m never going to be as smart as van counsel. Therefore, I’m never going to be that successful. I completely held myself back. And now I I’m proud to say that I’m not the smartest person in my company. You know, you and I were joking. While we were trying to get this thing set up to start the recording here. You know, I had three people on my end, you had three people on your end trying to get you and I together today. And thank goodness, they’re smarter than we are when it comes to technology and getting the right camera and the right microphone and all that stuff. You know, you don’t want me hanging out in the financial aid department at my school, you don’t want me hanging out in the in the accounting department or in the IT department. I’m I’m thrilled that there are people that are much smarter than I am. And so my backbone means I can work really, really, really, really, really, really hard. I can hustle and nobody can ever take that away from me. That’s my backbone, not my wishbone. Not not I wish I were as smart as van Council. I wish I was as pretty as Vivi mackinder. That’s not my, my wishbone is my backbone. My backbone means maybe I’m not the smartest person in the room, but I can be the most positive person in a room. How far is that gonna take me I walk in, and I’m just super positive. And I go out of my way to meet everybody and to and to connect and to engage with everybody. Oh, my gosh, to me that’s so attractive when somebody does that. And we’ve all we’ve all had those mentors and those heroes that where we’ve been disappointed, where you finally get to meet them up close and personal, and they’re and they’re not engaging, and they’re not nice, and they’re not and they’re not generous with their time or with their with their wisdom. And the opposite of that. You know, Vidal Sassoon was the exact opposite of that, you know, I’ve been in rooms where there were 1000 people tugging at Vidal Sassoon, right, they all wanted his attention. They all wanted a picture with Vidal Sassoon. But if he was talking to you, what was he doing? He was just talking to you. Yeah, he had no idea this other stuff was going on around him. Yeah. And and his conversations were genuine. His conversations were telling me about you. Why did you choose this industry? What are your goals? What are your passions? Yeah, how can I help you? He wasn’t talking about his wealth, or his fame, or his accolades, his awards, he was genuinely interested in the person that was right in front of him. And to me, that’s just so so attractive.

Chris Baran 48:12
Yeah. And, you know, to me, you know, it’s, I, we, I’ve talked about this a lot, being a bit of an introvert. And I remember being at his opening, when they introduced his movie in New York City, and I was there, and it was watching everybody else go up to him. And it was too damn afraid, you know, and, and I don’t even know, maybe afraid, or I don’t even know if that’s the right word. But it was just weird. And I, you know, to this day, I wish that I would have went up there and done that. And that would have been the backbone part. Why didn’t you just go out and do it instead of leaving that little voice? And well, why would he want a picture with you and all of that stuff. But that’s such great information. And I learned

Winn Claybaugh 48:51
from people like that, yeah, you know, I can do that. I don’t have to be as talented as he is. I don’t have to be as wealthy as his, as famous as he is. But I could walk into a room of people, whether it’s five people or 1000 people, and I can be genuinely interested in everybody in that room.

Chris Baran 49:10
I saw a picture of you, obviously, it is my conclusion from what I’m getting at every picture you get, you make your own conclusion of what it is. But my I saw this picture of you on stage, kneeling down at the edge of the stage, talking to one person and but what stood out to me was what you just said, there had to been another you know, 50 100 people that were lined up around you trying to get to you shaking your hand. But I watched your eyes and you were focused on her and her alone. And that there’s very few people that I think that have that quality. You have that if you’ve ever talked to em Minsi she has that quality. You know, Vidal Sassoon had that quality and I think that there’s got to be something thing in there is just that connect that you can do through just that eye contact, and just focusing on that one person, whether that’s for two minutes or two hours, I think that’s just a such a special special gift to have.

Winn Claybaugh 50:15
Thank you. I can tell you where that comes from, it comes from the fact that I haven’t mastered any of this stuff. It comes from the fact that happiness does not come naturally to me. I, to some people, it does come naturally to them. To me my whole life, even to this day, it never has, I have to work at my happiness every single day. And I as much as I wish I could not have to read books on self esteem as much as I wish I could graduate from from ever having to feel that way. That desperation, as I mentioned earlier, I can’t I can’t I can never coast, I have to work on it all the time. And I, but I’ve learned to be grateful for that, that that feeling because I know, the flip side to that is what genuinely makes me care about other people and hear other people’s stories and ask them about their stories and, and be there for people it really is genuine, because I want to be the person that maybe I’ve needed along the way.

Chris Baran 51:18
Yeah, what the? I know, I’ve got all my No, I think we all have our hang ups that we do and things that happened to us along the road, just along the way. And, and whether that’s ego from wanting to be recognized or whatever. But when you you know, what was the? Was there something along the way? Like, what what are the things that that I know, we can tell you some of the things that happen is, for me was just the things that happened to me that made me insecure in what I was doing. But I still carry some of that around. And like you have to do my gratitudes to get rid of it, etc. But what, for people that are listening out there and they say, Look, I’m going through that too. What would you what, what’s the thing the process the procedure that you go to? Or what the advice you’d give that you could give them? So they could get out of that funk or? or push this push through that? What would you tell that person?

Winn Claybaugh 52:17
Another great question. Discipline, in what way and again, that’s that’s that’s a word that people just think is a bad word. You know, that discipline ties you down. Discipline gives me the freedom, where I’ll do things that maybe I don’t enjoy doing so that I can have the life that I absolutely love. For example, I love having energy. I’m 65 years old, and I have a 12 year old daughter. You know, I need a lot of energy. Yeah. And so I go to the do I love the gym? No, do I love the diet? No. Do I love the discipline to get at least eight hours of sleep every single night? Not always. But I’m willing to do I’m willing to have the discipline to do things that I don’t necessarily enjoy doing so that I can have the life that I love. And so I’m very, very detailed in what my my day needs to look like. So it’s not like I go to the gym or whatever, I’m in the mood. I’ll never go Yeah, I go to the gym the same time every single day. So there’s I get up at four o’clock every single morning. And I know that right now people listening to this are like, what, four o’clock, I’m not going to do that. Okay, just find the discipline, the schedule that works for you. And I have the discipline. So I’m up at four o’clock, I know exactly what happens between four o’clock and six o’clock, which is when my daughter then gets up, I know what happens between six o’clock and 730, which is the time that she then leaves for school, I can tell you exactly what happens during the 20 minute drive. When I leave at 730 in the morning, and I drive to the gym, there’s a 20 minute drive. And I can tell you exactly what’s happening during those 20 minutes. Right. And I could schedule out my entire day that way. Because to not have that discipline means that well knows there’s risk that I didn’t go to the gym that I didn’t take the time to call my mother. Therefore I don’t have the energy. I don’t have the mindset to be a good parent to be a good dad to be a good husband to be a good leader. So I’m real, real, real, real disciplined with all of that stuff. You know, what do they say, at our age? Chris? You can’t discipline I’m sorry. What did they say at our age? You can’t google wisdom. You can google lots of things. But guess what? You and I have wisdom? Yeah, yeah. Can’t Google that.

Chris Baran 54:40
Yeah, I hear and I know that. My good friend of mine, Chris moody, always he talks about that the difference between knowledge and wisdom and he said knowledge is knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad. So it’s just that the experience responses that go along with, with it’s the wisdom that goes along with the knowledge that makes it viable and everything that you can do. Yeah. I, I want to hit on this and I’m is that right now because I know that you talk also on work life balance. And right now I No, that’s another thing that I get. Everybody’s saying I want work life balance. And yet, you know like earlier you said you hustle and you’re probably one of the most disciplined people that I know and works hard to get what what you get for the successes, especially with the amount of success that you’ve gotten. But what’s your take on work life balance when it comes to hustle and do your work and get out there? And right now I even heard somebody said to me the other day, or I heard it on the news that actually, in America, the amount of hours that there were that people are working, is actually surpassed Japan for the number of hours that you’re you’re putting into your work? And what do you say to people when it talks about work life balance, etc.

Winn Claybaugh 56:09
I think you’re at different stages of life. And maybe the whole balance thing is a is a myth. I don’t know that I’ve ever met anybody who said that they are perfectly balanced with, with work with family, with with health and wellness with in every area with spirituality. I don’t know that anybody has ever mastered that to be perfectly balancing all of those areas, and your different stages of life. Like every time I interview a successful woman, I’m always asking her that question, you know, can you have it all? And oftentimes the answer is, yes, you can, but maybe not at the same time. Oh, that’s Can you have a career? Can you raise children? Well, yeah. And so I heard that, like, but I focus. And what they’re telling me is I focused until I was in my 30s Only on my career was just about my career. But then when I decided to finally have a family, well, then I cut back there so that I could have that as well. And so maybe you could have all those things, but not at the same time. For me, it’s not so much about balance as it is maximizing. Yeah, it’s about maximizing my time. And so I’m not going to be balanced. But how can I have an hour to take care of this today? How can I maximize that hour to get the big the biggest return? So if I am going to volunteer my time today, if I am going to try to make a difference, so that I’m a good human being? So I feel good about myself spiritually. And I have an hour to do that. How can I maximize that hour to get the best result to get the better return on my investment? Yeah. Yeah,

Chris Baran 57:44
it’s, I love where your comparison because there’s so many people that they think it’s a numbers comparison, this hour to this hour, when it just has to be quality. I know that, you know, I still am little, if you’ll sense my that guilt that I still have when I was on the road all the time. And my wife was doing all that, you know, taking kids to school and go into the things that I missed out on and, and yet I talked to my kids about it, and whether they lie to me to make me feel better or not. But they said No, Dad, we we still, you know, we still got that from you. But that’s the part I’m getting from here is don’t take it as a numbers, comparison of hour per hour. It’s just the quality and how present you are.

Winn Claybaugh 58:28
Well, something is simple. So my daughter gets up at six o’clock. I know that that has to be no phone zone. Yeah, there has to be a time where now from four to six, I can be on my phone as much as I want. Because I’m using my phone to put on music because I’m a DJ throughout the day, I’m putting on different music to create moods for myself throughout the day, you know, I control my environment to get the to maximize the best energy of my day, and I’m on my phone to get through emails and you know, take care of because I am on the west coast. So I’ve got businesses on the East Coast, it’s three hours later, and they’re waiting for a response from me. And so I can take care of that bitch before 6am. But to maximize my time as a dad, I gotta shut that down. That phone needs to disappear and be hidden when my daughter is present.

Chris Baran 59:15
You know, it’s interesting when you say that when because it’s funny how you know, our mind creates a different ending to select that. Because you said the phone has to be off and I went, Oh, your daughter’s phone has to be off. That’s it. But I know you’re saying no, your daughter’s phone needs to be off. Your phone has to be off so that you are present and not picking up a phone every two minutes. Just looking at your emails, etc. Yeah, yeah, that’s great, great stuff. When we’re kind of at that, that I call it the rapid fire segment now kind of how we’ll wrap this up. So just throw out some questions the first thing that comes to your brain what turns you on in the creative process? Oh, really? chips, and what stifle relationships.

Winn Claybaugh 1:00:02
Oh my gosh, I just love love being able to tap into people’s, their backgrounds and their passions and what gets them out of bed in the morning and to be able to combine all of that, because I consider myself a connector. And so when I can, you know, find 10 people and you’re passionate about this, and for you, it’s something different. And I’m the connector that brings all of that together. I love that creative process. I love

Chris Baran 1:00:28
that what stifles a creative process for you.

Winn Claybaugh 1:00:33
Lack of sleep not going to the gym. You know, I, I it’s, you know, in this industry, you know, hairdressers are notorious for, for putting other people first, you know, so they don’t, they don’t eat properly because this client came in late. And this one, you know, wants more of your time and your attention. And, you know, so and I’m the same way, you know, at the end of the day, my gosh, to learn how to be selfish in a really good way, you know, to really, really take care of ourselves. And when I don’t do that, man, I’m just so stifled. Yeah, yeah. And I love I love the energy level that I have. I love it that 18 year olds can’t keep up with me. You know, and, again, as you and I know, we have to work harder to have that kind of energy. My gosh, I can be at the gym five days a week, and then I throw my back trying to put my socks on, you know, it’s it gets harder to maintain this. And, you know, so I, I’m super, super disciplined on maintaining that. And so if I’m ever stifled, I can I can look back over the last five days, and I skipped the gym. I skipped this. I missed out on that. And that’s what stifles me. Yeah,

Chris Baran 1:01:48
I get it. In life in general. What do you love the most about life?

Winn Claybaugh 1:01:53
Oh, my daughter.

Chris Baran 1:01:57
And that’s, and that’s Yeah, I think it’s not I always talked to like, was talking to Sam via this was before he had his son. And we were often talking, I said, Sam, when you have when you have your child, your life will change. Your attitude will change. Everything in life will change once you have that child. So

Winn Claybaugh 1:02:20
by the way, a million people could tell you that until it happens to you don’t know. Yeah, yeah. For me, it’s later in life again. I’m 65. And she’s 12. I had no idea. I had no idea that becoming apparent wasn’t going to do this to me. Yeah.

Chris Baran 1:02:34
What do you love most about our industry?

Winn Claybaugh 1:02:37
Oh, gosh, relationships. You know, this is just an industry that’s, that’s based on on relationships. You know, when you get together, you know, of course, there’s training going on, of course, there’s statistics going on, of course, there is the sharing of best practices. But above all of that the foundation for all of that is the networking and the relationships. And I just I thrive on that I just thrive on on meeting different people. And again, I call myself a connector. So I’m proud of the fact as much as I’m under the Paul Mitchell banner, so to speak under that umbrella. I’m proud of the fact that that my long term best friends in the beauty industry, a lot of them hadn’t have never had anything to do with the Paul Mitchell company. And, and by the way, not only am I proud of that John Paul DeJoria is proud of that he loves the fact that, that I speak at conferences for manufacturers, that are his competitors, so to speak, he loves that I cultivate those relationships.

Chris Baran 1:03:41
And you do that? Well. Very well, my friend. Thank you, the person that you admire the most.

Winn Claybaugh 1:03:52
Oh, my mom. Yeah.

Chris Baran 1:03:55
She was a big mentor in your life, or

Winn Claybaugh 1:03:56
she was she died in, in December. So just, you know, six months ago, at 96 years old. And my mom, by the way, worked with me for over 30 years. So I when I was brand new in business, and by the way, she my my father, my mother mortgaged their home to help me open up my school. I mean, again, no college education, no experience, and yet they took that risk, and mortgage, they put their financial security and stability on the line to help me get into business. And then soon after, I lured my mother away from her job and convinced her to come and work with me. And she worked with me for 30 years. In fact, it was funny because she was I think maybe in her late 80s When one day she left me a message you know, when I needed a call me what she’s never left a message like that. I’m thinking oh my gosh, what’s gonna happen? What’s going on here? I call her back. Mom, what’s up? What’s up? What’s going on? She’s like, you know what, and she’s like, stammering and she’s trying to tell this to me. She’s like, I think it’s time for me to retire. I’m like, Mom, you can retire. You’re almost 90 you can retire. So the fact that I had, because my I got to see a side of my mom that other people that my siblings didn’t get to see, my sibling got to know, an amazing mom. And she was an amazing mom. I got to know her as this incredible mentor as this incredible businesswoman. So I got to see that side of her as well. And so she just taught me so much and I could we could spend hours and hours talking about the gifts and the lessons that I learned from that amazing woman. Yeah, well, God

Chris Baran 1:05:29
bless her for that. I know that everybody always talks about and I don’t take you as a possession person. But if somebody had to say to you, what was your most prized possession? What would you say that is?

Winn Claybaugh 1:05:44
A concert grand piano? Oh, yeah. And you know, how you set you set like a benchmarks for yourself, I wish I could be so successful that I could buy that car or that I could own my own business. I had a mattress on the floor. But my first goal was one day, I want to be successful, so that I can own a concert, a Yamaha concert, grand piano. And that was the first benchmark and that I that I reached tonight, by the way, I still own that piano

Chris Baran 1:06:13
35 years later, that’s awesome. And you play it? Yeah.

Winn Claybaugh 1:06:16
I play it. You know, it used to be a bit of a career. So I did have a bit of a career in the music industry. And now it’s just you know, strictly as a hobby. So now, the only person that hears me play the piano was my daughter.

Chris Baran 1:06:30
And I’m wondering if this next question was something that people don’t know about you? Was that a kind of a lead into that, or?

Winn Claybaugh 1:06:38
I was a rock star. So there you go. So in April of 1981, I had a hit song in South America. And believe it or not, it was that money. That that I used to open up my first salon, so I had this money and didn’t know what to do with the money. I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur and own my own business. And I had friends that were hairdressers. And they talked me into opening up a little salon. It was a three chair salon, like the size of my closet. It was in the in the basement of an office building in downtown Provo, Utah. Wow, that’s where I started off what my rent was $205 a month. What

Chris Baran 1:07:14
was the name of the song?

Winn Claybaugh 1:07:17
Yeah, we’re not going to go those guys try.

Chris Baran 1:07:22
You know that that had been popping up all

Winn Claybaugh 1:07:23
over the place on Yeah. And yeah, we’re gonna bury that

Chris Baran 1:07:27
one month off, where would you go? What would you do?

Winn Claybaugh 1:07:32
Hmm. You know what, stay home. Stay home, I just you know, as much as I travel, I don’t travel anywhere near as much as I did before I had my daughter. You know, when you and it, it’s always been a goal of mine or a focus of mine, to where my home had to be a sanctuary. So again, I’m very, very clear as much as people they will obsess about the lighting and the salon and the music and the salon and the cleanliness of the salon. But they don’t recreate that at home for themselves. And I’m, and I am that way my home is like it’s the right lighting. I said earlier that I’m a DJ all long, all day long at 4am. I put on music I don’t put on the news I put on music and what I listened to at four o’clock is different than what I listen to at six o’clock, which is different than what I listen to at 730. So I have the right speakers and the sound system and I like candles in the morning. I’m not exaggerating, but I like 20 candles in the morning. I’m all about ambiance and my home has always been a bit of a sanctuary for me. So to be able to have a month off and just be home in my own home. And that’s a that’s a fabulous experience for me.

Chris Baran 1:08:41
Yeah. Something that terrifies you. Mm

Winn Claybaugh 1:08:49
hmm. I’m not sure I really have an answer for that.

Chris Baran 1:08:58
Courageous all the way through.

Winn Claybaugh 1:09:00
I don’t know if it’s courage. I’m I’m certainly, you know, driven. I’ll say that there’s a lot of things that again, keep me up at night. Yeah, you know, the fight against sex trafficking scares the hell out of me. Yeah, you know, the, the fact that 1000s of animals are euthanized every single year. Yeah, you know, the fact that there are 10 million children that walk into a Children’s Miracle Network hospital every single year and those poor parents are faced with life and death of their child and they don’t have the means to pay. Ya know, that keeps me awake at night so

Chris Baran 1:09:38
well, that’s that’s probably one of the better ones we’ve got out of that. Mine. Just to show you mine was spiders.

Winn Claybaugh 1:09:49
Okay, I’m okay. What’s

Chris Baran 1:09:51
your favorite curse word?

Winn Claybaugh 1:09:54
Oh, that’s the F bomb. I’m sorry. Yeah, that’s and by the way, you know you’ve never heard me use that word on a stage. Never, never, never, never, never. But when I’m when it’s just me, that’s my favorite word. I’m sorry. There’s just no better way to express yourself. Yep.

Chris Baran 1:10:11
And sometimes it’s, it can be rhetorical to you know, it’s just your favorite comfort food.

Winn Claybaugh 1:10:22
That would be key lime pie. Oh, I know when I shouldn’t I shouldn’t share this because get this and so you know, I’m the boss in the company. What do you buy the boss for Christmas? Right. And so I guess I shared this on a podcast, you know, last fall. And so I had like, I’m not exaggerating, like 20 Key Lime pies, showed up at my house for the holidays. So So yeah, and you gotta you know, you gotta you gotta you I know they went in the freezer. And trust me, I got through all of them. Even though they were the best tea line pies. They were shipped in from the key lime capital of Florida, whatever. And so they were amazing key lime pies. Yeah, that’s where Rita

Chris Baran 1:11:01
and I, my wife and I got indoctrinated into them is going to Florida. And then just, I’d never had a key lime pie before. And then we even found out where to buy the juice to make the stuff with so it was awesome. If something in the industry you haven’t done, but you want to.

Winn Claybaugh 1:11:24
We’re doing our affirmation in this industry has been just so generous to me. You know, I’ve been I’ve been the host of na hives spoken at every single major industry event back in the day member, TSA, the salon Association and, you know, spoken at

all of the big, big events around the industry. Hmm. I, again, I don’t think I have an answer for that question. That’s okay. I

feel super, super blessed. That I’ve been able to check so many things off that list. It

Chris Baran 1:12:01
has been an amazing industry for a lot of us. If you had one wish for our industry, what would that be?

Winn Claybaugh 1:12:12
More unity, more unity without stop considering that the salon down the street is your enemy? Yeah, you know, I’d rather have 10 Good salons as my competitors than 10. Bad salons. Yeah, I’d rather have 10 Good schools as my competitors. And so when we have more unity, and we come together with best practices, and we we make commitments with each other, I keep on bringing up candy Shaw, you know, she has been a great friend and a great mentor, she talks about how there’s a group of salons in the Atlanta area that unite and they, they have agreements with each other not to poach and steal each other’s team members, and they share best practices and they unite and come together to pay for education for their teams. You know, I just think that that’s such a wonderful, wonderful example of what the possibilities are in this industry. And so and it can be just as simple as just, you know, call the salon down the street and say, Hey, why don’t we get together and pool our resources to bring in this great education or this great education for both of our teams or unless you get together for coffee and all are share with you my three best practices and if you want, you can share your best three practices with me and and then the next time we’ll grow that to three different salon owners that are having coffee and then to then attend and then we bring our teams together. So I just think that, you know, more more unity is what’s gonna support this industry. Yeah, I

Chris Baran 1:13:40
agree. 100% on that. So, I mean, besides I just want to say thank you so much for your You’re always so generous with your time. But if people want to get a hold of you, and they want you to come and speak or whatever, how would they? How would they get ahold of you? What would they what would they do to have you come in and speak with you?

Winn Claybaugh 1:14:01
I think the best way to contact me is through my website or social media and all of us when clay boss so on Instagram or Facebook or my Twitter, it’s all when clay ball. Yeah. My My website is when clay by.com I invite people on my website, all of these podcasts that I’ve been doing against his 1995 It’s all free and available for people to listen to. So they can go and listen to that very first interview with Vidal Sassoon that many years ago and I there’s a brand new issue every single month. So that’s the best way to connect. I don’t get out to speak, I will go out like once every six weeks, I’ll go out for a week. And then I just want to get home and be a dad. I’m the room parents at my daughter’s class every single year. So I I just I just I don’t want to miss a thing and

Chris Baran 1:14:54
I’m with him. So I listen, I just want to say thank you so much When it’s been an honor, it’s been a pleasure. You know what, and it’s just like everybody else that listens to you, I learned I learned to so I just want to say thank you for your time your generosity and your just availability. I know you’re everything going on you just you were here for us and I just truly appreciate you Chris

Winn Claybaugh 1:15:17
there’s no way I’m gonna say no to you. And your and by the way, you’re very very good at what you do. I’ve really enjoyed listen to the other interviews that you’ve done and you’re very good at what you do you come from this is beautiful place of humility and, and curiosity which is so attractive. Thanks.

Chris Baran 1:15:35
Thank you so much. And and to that point, I just want to say to people if you you know, if you’d like and I know you’re gonna love this podcasts that we had with when and but if you like what you hear and so on, if you just show us some love and just give us a five star rating and a review. And that way we can do more of these shows and get more out to you there but so I just want to say to when thank you so much. Again, I’m Chris Barron and this is head cases.